The "auction" (for lack of a better word) is over. Look at what happened.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Umm......

If we need to abandon all contact with businesses that behave badly at times, we'll have to shut this whole thing down.

I can't think of any major computer industry company that hasn't been in legal trouble or that hasn't engaged in some questionable practices at some time.

And Then...............

I suppose going to shows is out. Since I'd have to get there by car. Which means using gas, and contributing to the profits of oil companies.

Perhaps if I became a hermit?

Ah, but I've done stuff in the past that I'm not exactly proud of.

If I'm withdrawing ALL contact, that's kind of a problem.


The high road is great, and we should try to stay on it as much as possible.
But taken to extremes it just isn't practical.

Steve B

Steve that's all true but it remains the case that if one believes someone selling baseball cards is not ethical, it's pretty simple not to do business with them instead of rationalizing it.

[Runscott]

...

[calvindog]

Guys, we have people here who think that even though they've been shilled they are not victims of fraud. This is a bigger issue.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Guys, we have people here who think that even though they've been shilled they are not victims of fraud. This is a bigger issue.

Every member of this forum has been a victim of hobby related fraud in one way or another. We have all purchased cards off ebay and through auction houses. We have all been suckered into graded cards, or have been affected by the absurd price manipulation that comes with it. Every one of us has been duped one way or another - reprints, altered cards, forged autographs or general ebay scum. Each one of us is a victim of fraud, anyone with a card collection who says otherwise is delusional.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Every member of this forum has been a victim of hobby related fraud in one way or another. We have all purchased cards off ebay and through auction houses. We have all been suckered into graded cards, or have been affected by the absurd price manipulation that comes with it. Every one of us has been duped one way or another - reprints, altered cards, forged autographs or general ebay scum. Each one of us is a victim of fraud, anyone with a card collection who says otherwise is delusional.

Sad but true, but still, the fact that the sea is rough does not mean one should not try one's best to navigate it.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Two problems with that statement: 1) if they want the card, they will rationalize a new definition for "ethical", or rationalize how the seller can't be proven to be unethical; 2) it's much simpler to rationalize a way to get something you want, especially if you have the power to make it happen, then to avoid the thing you want. It's what used to allow me to have a hamburger and beer as my pre-race meal. If I had been a vegetarian on ethical grounds, this example would have covered both of my points.

Yesterday you defended an ebay seller who is offering an old mill "brown"card for 2,500$ which many knowledgeable folks here called a black back. It seems to me that that listing is deceptive and unethical or worse. You seemed to have no problem rationalizing that the seller is actually honest and well respected and ethical.
I spent over an hour last night looking at old threads which try to prove out the shill bidding clearly because I tend to rationalize as well: I trust PWCC & Brent and don't believe he would ever ruin his reputation by allowing it to occur with his knowledge. I know cards I consigned were never shilled. And I have trouble seeing all unusual bidding is actually shill bidding. every ebay participant once had 0 feedback or low feedback. PWCC advertises more than most and it's hard to miss when he has 1 card closing every minute all night. I believe that attracts a lot of new ebay bidders. Some of us have strange bidding practices hitting the bid button a lot and looking for the current high bid. Bid retractions are to me inexplicable and clearly another story and not sure why ebay wouldn't suspend someone with more than a couple in a 30 day period.
Obviously shilling is wrong and illegal. I think trying to deceive buyers about a card and overcharging for it is equally wrong. Rationalizing stuff is human and we are all guilty of it as you said

[Runscott]

...

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Why are you following me from thread to thread? Your position on shilling was not supportable, so you followed me over to the thread on Irishhosta. Your position regarding that topic was also not supportable, so now you are back over here being a pain in my backside.

You, my friend, are on ignore. It's a small list, but you earned it.

I'm honored to make the list. I didn't realize you have an exclusive on the threads & I find it funny that you assume it means I follow you around because I would comment on another thread. I guess you don't see the irony in discussing others lapses in ethical behavior and rationalizing while supporting a "proven honest seller"" grossly misrepresenting a card . Your first comment to me is that I am blind because my opinion doesn't match yours. I believe my positions are supportable & your arrogance is not
With all due respect.
Paul C

[Runscott]

...

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Now we can get back to having an intelligent discussion.

And the arrogance continues.

[chernieto]

Scott,
Ethics and rationalizations aside I understand for some people ignoring points raised in a discussion rather than addressing differences is an easy route to take.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You, my friend, are on ignore.

Scott,

You and I have had some pretty strong disagreements, but we never put each other on ignore. I have never used that function at all (don't even know how). I find it kind of childish to ingore all posts of someone I disagree with. And though we disagree on some things, I still agree with you on a lot of other things. It's ok to disagree. You are one of my favorite posters on here. In fact, some of the people I've disagreed the most with are some of my favorite posters. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you can't respect their opinion if it differs from yours. That's just me, but even the people I disagree with still have valuable information sometimes, and why miss that?

DJ

[Runscott]

...

[chernieto]

[QUOTE=Runscott;1274099]David, you are completely correct on all counts. But I have no idea why you think that I do not respect someone's opinion, or that I don't think others have the right to disagree with me. I completely respect ALL opinions on this forum. This particular thread is a bit different, in that we are talking about cheating, and whether or not it's okay. Having an opinion that cheating or stealing is okay, is a bit different from having an opinion that a card has been trimmed or that guns should be allowed in churches and bars. What I absolutely do NOT respect is a nit who uses 25% of his total posts to follow me around attempting to be a pain in my ass, or someone like Todd who joins a fray just to pile-on because of past disagreements. What do either of those situations have to do with 'opinion'? And how am I 'arrogant' for basically telling him to pound sand?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Usually when you call people blind, a nit they respond negatively. You address people respectfully they generally respond in kind. Not everyone has 6,500 posts...If you choose to judge a net54 member by the number of posts that's clearly your call...go right ahead. Don't insult me....Please leave me on your exclusive ignore list & enjoy life & try to insult less people.
Paul C

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steve that's all true but it remains the case that if one believes someone selling baseball cards is not ethical, it's pretty simple not to do business with them instead of rationalizing it.

I'm not rationalizing, I try to avoid sellers I know are questionable. I also don't make much effort to investigate any particular seller. In that way I'm probably a small piece of the problem.

And I agree. Within a hobby it's easier to avoid questionable sellers.

It just struck me as mildly hypocritical for someone to say we should cut off all business with sellers who are known to at least ignore stuff like shilling. And to make that post from a computer or phone that's almost certainly got software form Microsoft(Antitrust, less than forthcoming at times) Apple (Production in factories with deplorable working conditions) Or Google (Copyright violation - many times over)

We all do business in some way with all of them.

To me the difference is that with the big corporations there isn't much choice.
And at least we can do that business knowing what sort of company we're dealing with.
I've bought from some flea market dealers I didn't trust. But did it knowing they were a bit sketchy, and made my decisions on the item at the time. There were a few I simply wouldn't bother with at all.
If you look hard enough at almost any seller there's something they've done that would bother someone. Maybe not criminal, but maybe not exactly "right" either.


I think others make some good points, fraud is here, and has been. And we probably can't stop it entirely. To think that I haven't been harmed indirectly by shilling in a major auction I don't buy from would be foolish. (Not directly since I can't afford the great stuff even unshilled) The rise in price of the good stuff raises the price of the cheaper stuff I can afford.

There are positive aspects to higher overall prices, but that's a bit too far removed from this discussion.

Pointing out fraud when it happens is a good thing.

Steve B

[Runscott]

...

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'm not rationalizing, I try to avoid sellers I know are questionable. I also don't make much effort to investigate any particular seller. In that way I'm probably a small piece of the problem.

And I agree. Within a hobby it's easier to avoid questionable sellers.

It just struck me as mildly hypocritical for someone to say we should cut off all business with sellers who are known to at least ignore stuff like shilling. And to make that post from a computer or phone that's almost certainly got software form Microsoft(Antitrust, less than forthcoming at times) Apple (Production in factories with deplorable working conditions) Or Google (Copyright violation - many times over)

We all do business in some way with all of them.

To me the difference is that with the big corporations there isn't much choice.
And at least we can do that business knowing what sort of company we're dealing with.
I've bought from some flea market dealers I didn't trust. But did it knowing they were a bit sketchy, and made my decisions on the item at the time. There were a few I simply wouldn't bother with at all.
If you look hard enough at almost any seller there's something they've done that would bother someone. Maybe not criminal, but maybe not exactly "right" either.


I think others make some good points, fraud is here, and has been. And we probably can't stop it entirely. To think that I haven't been harmed indirectly by shilling in a major auction I don't buy from would be foolish. (Not directly since I can't afford the great stuff even unshilled) The rise in price of the good stuff raises the price of the cheaper stuff I can afford.

There are positive aspects to higher overall prices, but that's a bit too far removed from this discussion.

Pointing out fraud when it happens is a good thing.

Steve B

well said