OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Braun didn't use a performance enhancer, though, Ian, and I wish the sites like ESPN and Yahoo sports, who were so quick to condemn him absent of the facts, breaking the story during what was supposed to be a confidential appeals process, and before Shyam Das had even ruled on his appeal, would expend even half the energy they did then to report the truth.

The substance he took was used to accelerate healing of a pretty serious calf injury that had been bothering him all season. The bottom line is that he broke the rules, and yes, he should have been suspended, as he was at the end of last season. He let Brewers fans down big time. He let me down. I've been the biggest Ryan Braun fan since he came to the Majors in 2007. I loved it when he extended his contract, and stayed in Milwaukee for far less than he could have made if he tested free agency. And he's done an awful lot of good in Milwaukee, including working with a lot of charities. Of course, you never hear any of these stories. All you hear is how Braun is this terrible human being that "threw a little guy under the bus to save himself". Braun made a dumb mistake. But he's hardly the pariah the media have tried to make him out to be. So much of the crap that you read about him has been made up. But, there's nobody to hold ESPN's or Yahoo's feet to the fire. So, when Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports prints an article that Ryan Braun secretly contacted Matt Kemp, Joey Votto and Troy Tulowitzki to ask them for their public support, asserting that collector Dino Laurenzi Jr was an anti-semitic Cubs fan, everybody trashed Braun. When both Votto and Tulowitzki came out the very next day, calling the story pure fiction, did Yahoo or ESPN run that story? Of course not. Joey Votto even offered to provide his phone records to prove that no conversation between himself and Braun happened. But the damage had already been done.

Yeah Bill, sorry, I remember we'd discussed that in depth a while back. Just goes to show how far an irresponsibly reported black mark can go (damn writers). That said, think my point still applies- we probably should be suspicious of everyone. And keeping that in mind, think we should also be cautious not to over scritinize/tear down certain players (Bonds, etc), while seemingly forgiving others based on their popularity (Big Papi).

[pro9]

I've always felt that Cecil Travis should be in the HOF. He had fantastic numbers (.327 lifetime batting average) , before he went into the military for WWII and lost almost 4 prime years. Keep in mind that he was a shortstop and was never the same player after the war due to injuries sustained during combat. Ted Williams called him one of the five best left handed hitters he ever saw.

[johnmh71]

Wilbur Cooper
Babe Adams
Luis Tiant
Vern Stephens

[JollyElm]

Apropos of nothing...The strangest part of this thread is the fact that multiple people mentioned Tommy John. For some bizarre reason, I always thought he was already in Cooperstown. I was certain of it. In fact, when I'm listing trades of HOF'ers, he's frequently included. How in living heck did I miss this fact all of these years?? I'm perplexed. Yowza!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JollyElm]

But back to the topic at hand…
Gil Hodges
Lou Whitaker
Alan Trammell
…all should get serious consideration, but I think the hallowed halls should only be opened for the absolute best players, not the semi-greats.

[ejharrington]

Keith Hernandez should be in...we grew up watching him and we all thought he was a future Hall of Famer. He was the best player on some of the best teams of the 1980's.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Keith Hernandez should be in...we grew up watching him and we all thought he was a future Hall of Famer. He was the best player on some of the best teams of the 1980's.

I think most of us can agree that Hernandez was the best defensive first basemen in our lifetime, with Don Mattingly not far behind him.

So, I ask you all this. If Ozzie Smith was put in the Hall of Fame for his defensive wizardry, tell me why Keith Hernandez is not in Cooperstown?

I know there are better defensive metrics available, but for this discussion, let's just use Gold Gloves for comparative purposes, ok?

Gold Gloves:

Ozzie Smith, 13 at shortstop (1980 to 1992)
Keith Hernandez, 11 at first base (1978 to 1988)

Ok, Ozzie won two more at short than Keith won at first. But I think we'd all agree that if you win ten or more Gold Gloves, you're pretty incredible defensively.

Now, taking that logic a bit further. What if Keith won only 9 Gold Gloves instead of 11? You'd still consider him a spectacular defender, right? I mean, as a baseball player ages, no matter how good they are, their reflexes will slow down. If you win almost a decade's worth of Gold Gloves, you've been pretty much exceptional at your position. Without peer.

Let's go back to Ozzie Smith. All glove, no stick. Yes, Ozzie managed to tally 2,460 hits because he played 19 seasons. And yes, he did become a better hitter later in his career. From 1978 to 1984, Ozzie Smith had a .604 OPS. That's pretty bad. From 1985 to 1996, the end of his career, his OPS was .702. Still not very good, but a 100 point improvement is substantial. But let's not kid ourselves. He got into Cooperstown because of his glove.

Keith Hernandez, who was pretty much the defensive equivalent of Ozzie Smith at first base, was not a weak hitter. Not at all. Hernandez won the 1979 MVP, hitting a league-leading .344 with 116 runs scored, 210 hits, 48 doubles, 11 triples, 11 home runs and 105 RBI. He walked 80 times, and struck out 78. The next season, Keith led the NL with 111 runs scored and a .408 OBP. In his 17 year career, Hernandez accumulated 2,182 hits, 1,124 runs, 1,070 RBI, and 1,071 walks. He was a career .296 hitter, with an impressive slash line of .384/.436/.821.

I think the thing that has kept Keith Hernandez out of the Hall of Fame is that he was never the prototypical first baseman. He was never a power hitter, nor was he really a big time run producer. The 105 RBI of his MVP season represented his career high, and the only time he would exceed 100 RBI. But where is it written that all first basemen must be big power hitting run producers? Take somebody like Prince Fielder. A guy that will hit .280 with 35 to 40 home runs and 110 RBI, and provide below average defense. Keith Hernandez was an outstanding hitter. If he was Ozzie Smith's equal defensively, though at a different position, why then is he not in the Hall of Fame when he is so clearly superior to Smith as an offensive force? Smith's 87 OPS+ is pretty abysmal. Keith Hernandez had a 128 OPS +. Since 1964, the last 50 years, there have been 245 hitters to total 6,000 or more at bats. Keith Hernandez, a man who never hit twenty home runs in a single season, is 59th on that list with his 128 OPS +. He has the same OPS + of Jim Rice and Sammy Sosa. His OPS + is one point power than Bobby Bonds, Fred Lynn and Eddie Murray, who compiled a 129 OPS +. These names I have mentioned put up some pretty impressive numbers. Murray and Rice are Hall of Famers, and neither could approach Keith Hernandez' defensive abilities. Sammy Sosa hit 60 home runs multiple times, one of only two men in history to do so.

Keith Hernandez, in my opinion, should have been in the Hall of Fame long ago. He showed that a first baseman could be more, that a first baseman could be different, yet extremely successful.

What about Don Mattingly then? Keith Hernandez won 11 Gold Gloves. Don Mattingly won 9. Keep in mind that the Gold Glove Award was first handed out in 1957. That being said, only Keith Hernandez in the last fifty seven years has had more Gold Gloves won at first base.

It's been said before that Don Mattingly will likely never make the Hall of Fame.

Why? Could I go through the list of players that have been inducted into the Hall of Fame, and find several that were inferior players when compared to Mattingly? Absolutely. Of course, we all know that only the player's accomplishments can be considered.

Don Mattingly played 14 years in the Major Leagues. He won 9 Gold Glove Awards. He was named an All Star 6 times. He won the 1985 American League MVP Award. He was the MVP runner up the next season (and he should have won. Roger Clemens won the Cy Young and MVP both that season, and I have a problem with pitchers being included in MVP voting). And he finished 5th in the 1984 AL MVP vote. Mattingly hit safely 2,154 times in his career. He hit 442 doubles, 222 home runs. He scored 1,007 times, and drove in 1,099 runs. He walked 588 times, and only struck out 444 times. 444 strike outs in 7,003 at bats.

In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, he was the best player in baseball between 1984 and 1987. Of the 124 Major League players to have 1,600 or more at bats between 1984 and 1987, Mattingly had the highest OPS + at 155. During that period, Mattingly's .337 AVG was third best in the Majors behind Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn. But while those two combined to hit 78 home runs in the four years, Mattingly hit 119, sixth best of all Major League hitters. And, none of the five men who hit more home runs than Mattingly hit over .300. Mattingly was the best combination of power and average in the game. Mattingly's 842 hits was second best in the Majors behind Wade Boggs' 850. Mattingly easily led the Majors with 183 doubles during this period, 23 more than second place finished Wade Boggs. And, Mattingly's 483 RBI were by far the most in the Major Leagues, besting second place finished Dave Parker by 51. And from 1985 to 1987, Mattingly won the Gold Glove Award at first base. He was the best player in the Majors offensively, and by that point, Keith Hernandez' equal defensively at first base.

When I consider a player's worthiness for Cooperstown, I ask a small list of questions.

1. Did the player in question ever win an MVP award? Cy Young for pitchers? How many times did the player in question finish in the top 5 in their specific award?
2. Beyond any MVP or Cy Young Awards, were they the best player in baseball for a period of time beyond the one season?
3. Were they the best player in their league at their position? Were they the best in baseball at their position?
4. For hitters, how many of the Triple Crown categories did they lead in a season? How many times did they lead the league in runs, stolen bases or walks? How many times did they lead the league in OBP, SLG or OPS.
5. How many times did were they named an All Star? Did they win any Gold Glove Awards?
6. How big a role did they play in getting their team to the playoffs? How did they perform in the post season if they got there.
7. Finally, what players most closely match their career totals? Did they make the Hall of Fame, or are they currently under consideration for election?
8. Are they the best player not to be elected to the Hall of Fame? Are they the best player at their primary position not to get elected to the Hall of Fame.

These questions are obviously quite similar to the list created by Ken Keltner.

When I read through this list, I can't help but look at Don Mattingly's career, and think he's a Hall of Famer. Yes, his power numbers did tail off greatly after the 1989 season. But shoulder and back injuries hindered him. His numbers did not fall off because of any decline in skill.

Mattingly not only had an outstanding career, and an elite peak period, but he was, in my opinion, the best player in baseball for a four year period. He was an elite hitter and fielder both. Not many players will win 9 Gold Gloves and have four seasons with .900 + OPS totals.

But ultimately, I would present my case for Mattingly this way. Since 1964, the last 50 years of Major League Baseball, there have been 240 hitters to register 6,000 or more at bats. Of those, only fifteen men have a higher batting average than Mattingly's career .307 mark. And every one of those men had strikeout totals that were substantially higher, except for Tony Gwynn. Mattingly had 7,772 plate appearances, and struck out 434 times. Tony Gwynn had 10,232 plate appearances, and struck out only 444 times. Gwynn struck out once every 21.4 at bats. Don Mattingly struck out every 15.77 at bats. When considering hitters on this list with over 200 home runs, the next best strikeout rate belongs to Ted Simmons, who only struck out once every 12.50 at bats.

What does all this mean? It means that at his very best, before back and shoulder injuries sapped his power, Don Mattingly was the best hitter in baseball. He was the best combination of power, run production, and pure hitting. Mattingly in his four years atop baseball as its best player hit those 119 home runs, or 30 home runs per season, while only striking out 147 times. When you consider that there are hitters now striking out more than 200 times a season, Mattingly at his best was reminiscent of Joe DiMaggio. I mean, does anybody today hit 30 home runs, and strike out 37 times? That's what Donnie Baseball did. And while Mattingly was destroying the baseball, he was also playing spectacular defense at first.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Yeah Bill, sorry, I remember we'd discussed that in depth a while back. Just goes to show how far an irresponsibly reported black mark can go (damn writers). That said, think my point still applies- we probably should be suspicious of everyone. And keeping that in mind, think we should also be cautious not to over scritinize/tear down certain players (Bonds, etc), while seemingly forgiving others based on their popularity (Big Papi).

I agree.

I think a big part of how Bonds and Papi are treated has to do with how they treat the media. Bonds was downright surly with the media most of the time. While Papi never met a reporter he didn't like, at least in my experiences. The folks in Boston love him, and even though he pretty much admitted to using PEDs, Ortiz could probably run for mayor and win.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I agree.

I think a big part of how Bonds and Papi are treated has to do with how they treat the media. Bonds was downright surly with the media most of the time. While Papi never met a reporter he didn't like, at least in my experiences. The folks in Boston love him, and even though he pretty much admitted to using PEDs, Ortiz could probably run for mayor and win.

Clemens and Belle fall into the Bonds catagory

[pcoz]

Dave Parker for sure!! Was as good if not better than Rice & Dawson who are already in. Take a look!

7× All-Star (1977, 1979–1981, 1985, 1986, 1990)
2× World Series champion (1979, 1989)
NL MVP (1978)
3× Gold Glove Award (1977–1979)
3× Silver Slugger Award (1985, 1986, 1990)
All-Star Game MVP (1979)
2× NL batting champion (1977, 1978)
Home Run Derby winner (1985)

Batting average .290
Hits 2,712
Home runs 339
Runs batted in 1,493

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by pcoz

Dave Parker for sure!! Was as good if not better than Rice & Dawson who are already in. Take a look!

7× All-Star (1977, 1979–1981, 1985, 1986, 1990)
2× World Series champion (1979, 1989)
NL MVP (1978)
3× Gold Glove Award (1977–1979)
3× Silver Slugger Award (1985, 1986, 1990)
All-Star Game MVP (1979)
2× NL batting champion (1977, 1978)
Home Run Derby winner (1985)

Batting average .290
Hits 2,712
Home runs 339
Runs batted in 1,493

I hate saying this as a Pirate fan, but I don't see Parker getting in because of the 1985 coke trials in Pittsburgh. It is probably the same reason that Bill Madlock, who has four batting titles, will not get into the Hall of Fame.

Now, another former Pirate, Al Oliver, could be considered. Great defensive centerfielder and over 2700 hits with a .303 lifetime batting average.

[packs]

Throwing another vote towards Harry Stovey. I don't care if he played in the AA. It was a recognized major league just as much as the upstart American League was when it started.

Stovey led leagues in home runs 5 times. Finished as the career leader and was third as late as 1920 (his career ended in 1893). Throughout his career he led the league in over 20 offensive categories and may have stolen up to 800 bases.

When he retired, he was the career leader in both home runs and stolen bases AND held the single season records for both categories.

He was the first great power hitter in a game that celebrates power hitters. But he is not in the HOF.

[pcoz]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I hate saying this as a Pirate fan, but I don't see Parker getting in because of the 1985 coke trials in Pittsburgh. It is probably the same reason that Bill Madlock, who has four batting titles, will not get into the Hall of Fame.

Now, another former Pirate, Al Oliver, could be considered. Great defensive centerfielder and over 2700 hits with a .303 lifetime batting average.

Brian, I completely agree with all your points. It's a shame but true. Al Oliver should more consideration for sure.

[glynparson]

amazes me how for students of the games history we get all sanctimonious about PED users. We act like this was developed as a gentlemen's game and played by men of honor and integrity. Very far from the actual beginnings and the vast majority of the early players of this game. We always suppose this guy or that guy would not have taken PED's we do not know this but we do know many have said and done things that are certainly not upstanding. The hall of fame is to honor the history of the game and no matter how hard we try to pretend these people are part of the history of the game. I am also sorry but I heard almost noone think the players were clean during the 1998 HR chase and the seasons after it. We all pretty much knew we just did not care than all of sudden when the AAron record was in jeopardy we all cared. Ratings were booming baseball was the talk of the sports world and the executives etc of the sport all knew what was going on. They did not care why should the players. Couple this with the fact that the sport deemed it illegal but had no penalties, I do not see it as just to all of a sudden impose this PED users arent allowed in attitude. This leads to a player like Bagwell who looks like PED user to me getting more votes than Clemens or Bonds because we are more positive they took. This process has become a joke and so has the hall of fame. Restore it to a museim to tell the sports history and leave the sanctimony at the door. If just taking these drugs made you an all time great why was Jason Giambi an MVP and allstar and Jeremy Giambi barely a bench warmer?

[marvymelvin]

Roger Maris. Can I bring his name up again? It seemed like 20 years ago everyone was arguing over whether Maris should get into the hall or not. Then it all died down after his final eligibility year. I know that I am a homer for the Yankees, but seriously, Maris deserves another look, especially when we are looking to clean up the game and recognize guys for determination, clean living, and sportsmanship. All of which I believe Maris was a great example. And he had respectable numbers.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by marvymelvin

Roger Maris. Can I bring his name up again? It seemed like 20 years ago everyone was arguing over whether Maris should get into the hall or not. Then it all died down after his final eligibility year. I know that I am a homer for the Yankees, but seriously, Maris deserves another look, especially when we are looking to clean up the game and recognize guys for determination, clean living, and sportsmanship. All of which I believe Maris was a great example.

Brad, I'm sorry. I just couldn't put Roger Maris in if I had a vote, as much as I liked the man, and as much as I admire what he accomplished in breaking Babe Ruth's single season home run record. I've never read a persuasive argument in favor of putting him into Cooperstown, and while he may have set a great example with how he lived his life, that in no way strengthens the argument for inducting him into the Hall of Fame. All that counts is what he did when he was wearing his uniform.

Originally Posted by marvymelvin

And he had respectable numbers.

He did have respectable numbers. But this is the Hall of Fame we're talking about, which should recognize only the greatest men to have ever played the game.

Roger Maris had two elite seasons, 1960 and 1961 when he won the AL MVP both years. He hit 100 home runs, and drove in 253 runs in those two seasons combined. Beyond those two MVP seasons, he was an All Star two other times, and he received MVP votes just one other time, in 1964 when he finished 25th in the vote. Maris was also a very good outfielder, underrated perhaps. He did win a Gold Glove in 1960.

But as hard as I try, I can't make a good argument in his favor. His career numbers, while good, don't even approach Hall of Fame consideration.

.260 AVG, 275 home runs, 850 RBI.
He had 1,325 hits. 195 doubles. 42 triples. He stole 21 bases.
His career slash line .345 OBP/.476 SLG/.822 OPS is good, but not great by any means.

Besides his two MVP seasons, he hit over 30 home runs in one other season, 1962, when he hit 33. That was also the only other season when he drove in 100 or more runs, at 100 exactly.
He hit 28 home runs in 1958, 23 home runs in 1963, and 26 in 1964. After the 1964 season, when he was 30 years old, he'd never hit more than 13 home runs in a single season again.

Roger didn't perform well in the post season, either. He was a .217 hitter in 41 career post season games. He had 33 hits in 152 at bats, with 6 home runs and 18 RBI. His .298 OBP/.369 SLG/.667 OPS wouldn't exactly excite the Veterans Committee.

Try as I may, the only thing Roger has going for him are his two MVP seasons, and there are other players with much better careers that have won two MVPs, and not made it into the Hall of Fame (Dale Murphy, for one, comes to mind).

[bbcard1]

Understanding this is a pre-war board and I am likely to open myself up to some criticism here…we have throughly exhausted good candidates from the pre-1950 era and, if we could, should probably remove several of them. The 1960s and 1970s are pretty underrepresented, especially the 60s where offense was so throttled.

[wolf441]

I also wonder how the marginal pre-1947 HOFers (Hafey, Marquard, Bresnahan, Klein, Bottomly, etc...) would have done if they had to pitch against players similar to Willie Mays, Henry Aaron or had to hit against Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, etc...

[clydepepper]

when rules are bent is that you loose both perspective and the thought that, "There, by any other flip of the coin, would be me."

What Baseball has had and struggles mightily to keep is the special contact between the individual ex-player-wanna-be and the skilled professional.

You do not have to be 7-feet tall or 250 pounds or even especially fast. Good, if not great baseball play comes from practice after practice.

I will be the first to admit that I got thoroughly caught up in the afore-mentioned Home Run race of 1998. Everyone wanted to believe. I was on the edge of my seat as not one but two nice-guys surged toward a new standard.

I watched in great appreciation when McGwire seemed to treat the Maris family like great friends who had been neglected for a long time.

I was amazed as both players not only passed but shredded the previous high. Both guys learned to share the emotion of the moment with the adoring fans.

Yes, it was all dreamlike in the summer of 1998. And as one of that following crowd, I carry the guilt of being an enabler.

I really believed in McGwire because he had a great homerun stroke from day 1 as a rookie. He was just a golf-pro working out on a baseball diamond in 1987. I still believe THAT year was legit.

Then came the injuries and the Canseco influence. He went from being a fairly slim big guy to someone with 16-inch forearms...I SAY AGAIN 16-INCH FOREARMS.

Meanwhile, in Chicago, Sammy Sosa was caught with a corked bat which evidently he only used in BP. He said it was 'for the fans.' Right then and there, I knew he did not understand that a bigger part of most of our appreciation is that believing this is someone using the same tools and opportunities that could have been available to anyone.

Then comes Bonds and Clemens, already the best position player and best pitcher of the generation. But that was not enough. These two guys stand on the shoulders of giants who came before them. They had every legitimate advantage and then decided to get more...and more.

There is simply no way to figure out exactly what was legitimate work and what was not. This is like Baseball's version of Wall Street's insider trading.

The National Baseball Hall of Fame is home to some seriously flawed individuals I grant you, but why can't that injustice be stopped.

The writers are flawed in the elections - think of all of the greatest who were not elected unanimously just so someone can have their 15 minutes. (I guess I'm having my 15 hours right now, huh).

Shakespeare said, 'The play is the thing.' - and so, regardless of anything else, the game endures.

[Marslife]

Elroy Leon Face (born February 20, 1928 in Stephentown, New York) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed relief pitcher. During a 17-year baseball career, he pitched from 1953–1969, primarily for the Pittsburgh Pirates. A pioneer of modern relief pitching, he was the archetype of what came to be known as the closer, and the National League's greatest reliever until the late 1960s, setting numerous league records during his career.

Face was the first major leaguer to save 20 games more than once, leading the league three times and finishing second three times; in 1959 he set the still-standing major league record for winning percentage (.947) with 18 wins against only one loss. He held the NL record for career games pitched (846) from 1967 until 1986, and the league record for career saves (193) from 1962 until 1982; he still holds the NL record for career wins in relief (96), and he held the league mark for career innings pitched in relief (1,211⅓) until 1983. On his retirement, he ranked third in major league history in pitching appearances, behind only Hoyt Wilhelm and Cy Young, and second in saves behind Wilhelm. Nicknamed "The Baron," he holds the Pirates franchise records for career games (802) and saves (188).

[clydepepper]

It is played everywhere....

In parks, in playgrounds, and prison yards...

In back alleys and farmers' fields...

By small children and old men...

Raw amateurs and millionaire professionals.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is a leisurely game

That demands blinding speed.

The only game in which the defense has the ball.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It follows the seasons...

Beginning each year with the fond expectancy of springtime...

And ending with the hard facts of autumn.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is a haunted game...

In which every player is measured against the ghost
of all who have gone before

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Most of all...

It is about time and timelessness...

Speed and grace...

Failure and loss...

Imperishable hope

And

Coming home.