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#1
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Chiming in from the memorabilia side, I think Gil Hodges, Tony Oliva and Cecil Travis should all be in. I agree with Keith Hernandez too -- the greatest fielding player in the history of his position, who was also an MVP and a great hitter. I think his problems are obviously his drug use, the fact that he fell off a cliff at the end of his career, and that he is not your typical first baseman (he hit for average, not for power).
Bill, I love your enthusiasm and your obvious love for the game and your team, but I have to take strong exception to two points you've made. 1 - To compare Dick Allen to Derek Jeter is ludicrous. I love statistics and they are a key part of any Hall of Fame argument, but let's face it, people have to take their nose out of a book when it comes to players that we've been able to see. Derek Jeter is so much more than his numbers -- in his prime he did so many things on the ballfield that are hard to quantify. And he was a winner -- the leader of a team that won multiple championships through different incarnations. Sure those teams included lots of other talent, but Jeter was always a leader. Allen by the way, was by all accounts a terrible teammate and a me-first player (of course he also had to deal with horrible levels of racism that Jeter didn't face). And as for the expansion argument, Allen played through two expansion eras. And then there's Ryan Braun -- let's be clear on one thing. Ryan Braun absolutely should be considered a pariah. He didn't make "a dumb mistake", he made multiple mistakes, and he made them consciously, thinking of himself over everyone else. He cheated and he blatantly lied about it, and he was willing to ruin an innocent man to try to save himself. He took things to enchance his performance, was a key part of the Biogenesis scandal, and tarnished the game in many ways. My guess is that if he didn't get caught, he would still be cheating and lying. I hope that he is able to rehabilitate himself and make a positive contribution to society, and if that turns out to be the case, he should be saluted for that. Greg |
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#2
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Almost forgot...
Gavvy Cravath |
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#3
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Every time Bill posts and makes a case for a player making the Hall of Fame, I become a believer
Well written posts with a lot of backup stats. I had never considered Cecil Cooper until his write up a while back, and he definitely made me reconsider Mr. Cooper.
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#4
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Gavvy Cravath - see - Cy Williams - see Chuck Klein see Baker Bowl |
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#5
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Steve Garvey (absolutely STUPID that he's not in)
Ted Simmons (one of the best hitting catchers of all time) Dave Parker (for at LEAST 10 years one of the most feared hitters of his time) are my top 3
__________________
I Remember Now.
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#6
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They may be voted in by some old timers committee long after they're gone. (As I watched Murphy play, I had no doubt he was a Hall of Famer, and I think the numbers back that up -- same for Garvey). Greg |
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#7
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Lincecum just threw his second no-no. That helps his cause.
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#8
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And I have no problem with the poster after Tony (Kenny Cole) and his comments regarding both Baker Bowl (and player adaptations thereto) and Gavvy Cravath being elected to the HoF. I enjoy this subject but cannot believe how men who were observed and chronicled by writers of their day as ranking among the all-time greats somehow slip to only Members of the Very Good after leaving as active players. Great topic, thanks. Steve Mitchell |
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#9
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these are all choices I endorse as well.
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#10
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I'm somewhat torn on Kaat. Yes, he won almost 300 games. Yes, he won 16 Gold Gloves (second most all-time to Greg Maddux). But was he ever the best pitcher in the game, or even in his league?
Here's the problem I have. The Cy Young Award started in 1956. Kaat started his career in 1959. Until 1967, there was just one award. Then there started being an award for each league. But Kaat, in his 25 year career, only received votes for the Cy Young Award once in his career, in 1975. I'm not saying he only won the Cy Young once. I'm saying that he only got votes--any votes at all--in one year. He was fourth in the '75 AL Cy Young Award. He never received another vote again. If the voters for that award only thought he was one of the top pitchers one year in twenty-five, how do we put him into the Hall of Fame, which is supposed to recognize he greats of the game? I looked at all Hall of Fame pitchers that have thrown over 1,000 innings in their career between 1880 and 2014. There are 66 pitchers. I then looked at their ERA +. Kaat's ERA+ is 108. His ERA + would be the 6th worst out of all Major League Hall of Fame pitchers. I then looked at career WAR. Kaat's 45.3 WAR would be 15th worst. Next, I looked at career WHIP. Kaat would be 17th worst. I don't know if those numbers are as reliable as they're purported to be, but it's pretty clear from those metrics, Kaat would be a lower-tier Hall of Famer if here were elected. I then checked his career averages. Per 162 games played, here are Kaat's career averages: 13 wins, 11 losses, 3.45 ERA, 110 strikeouts I couldn't help but notice that he only struck out 2,461 batters in 25 years. Then, I looked at his Hall of Fame statistics ![]() Three out of four metrics, he did not meet the average threshold for a Hall of Famer. However, one positive would be the most similar pitcher. First is Tommy John, who is not a Hall of Famer. But next are Robin Roberts and Fergie Jenkins, two Hall of Famers. However, Roberts had six straight 20 win seasons where he had a 2.93 ERA. All these years were before the advent of the Cy Young Award. And Jenkins won a Cy Young, finished second twice, finished third twice, and sixth once. I can see Jim Kaat getting another look, but he's a borderline Hall of Famer in my opinion. A very good pitcher with a few excellent seasons. I certainly wouldn't be upset if he got in, but if I were a voter, I would not vote for him.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
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#11
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__________________
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#12
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But I really do like Kaat - out of all the less-than-great-but-better-than-average players in Twins history, and they seem to have more than any other franchise, Kaat and Oliva are at the top.
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$co++ Forre$+ |
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#13
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One sign of a good ballplayer is that he adapts to the quirks and characteristics of his home ball park. I don't have too much heartburn over Gavvy Cravath (a right handed hitter btw) figuring out how to take advantage of the Baker Bowl's dimensions and hit to right field anymore than I do the old Baltimore Orioles manicuring their infield to assist them in bunting or right handers taking advantage of the Green Monster's short dimensions. Lots of people played in the Baker Bowl without leading the league in home runs on multiple occasions. Cravath's production, in particular, was prodigious in a pretty short span of time due to his late start in the majors. He was the Ralph Kiner of his time and if he were to be elected it wouldn't bother me at all. Last edited by Kenny Cole; 06-25-2014 at 04:13 PM. |
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#14
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I agree that as a right handed hitter Cravath deserves credit for adapting his swing to take advantage of the Baker Bowl but it is worth noting that on the road he was just an ordinary HR hitter.
__________________
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#15
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As for Ozzie Smith, I think what helps him is the era that he played in and the teams he played on. The NL was relatively thin on shortstops in his prime years. He also played on three pennant winning teams and a World Series winner. He was an All Star in 15 of his 19 seasons, which always put him on the national stage.
One stat that everyone seems to forget is his base stealing ability. He had nearly 600 steals for his career, averaging 37 a year. He struck out very little and had nearly two times as many walks as he did strikeouts. Forgot to mention, he is #1 all time in Defensive WAR, four runs better than #2, Mark Belanger. Last edited by Beatles Guy; 06-25-2014 at 04:44 PM. |
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#16
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if Bill has seriously suggested Cecil Cooper should be in the HOF, he has lost all credibility.
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Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby: No consequences. Stuff trumps all. The flip is the commoodity. Animal Farm grading. |
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#17
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I'd basically stated that Cooper's chances at Cooperstown were basically wiped out because they didn't play him while he was in Boston. In his first three seasons, he played in 14, 12 and 30 games. If he'd started playing earlier, I think he'd have had made for an interesting debate. But as great as he was, I don't think he's on that level.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
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#18
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How could Bill Mazeroski be voted into the HOF and not Dick Groat??
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#19
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I vote with the others for Keith Hernandez. Greatest defensive first baseman ever, and an excellent hitter. I think he gets a bit of a bad rap because of his drug problems mid-career, but he got his act back together and was a beautiful player. The Mets never would have been the powerhouse they were in '86 without him.
A fascinating book of his, by the way, is Pure Baseball, where he comments and dissects two baseball games pitch by pitch. |
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#20
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I will agree with you on one point. He did make multiple mistakes. One, he used two items that contained banned substances. And, two, he lied about taking them. Beyond that, you are taking creative license. You have no way of knowing if Braun thought of himself above everybody else. That is pure hyperbole. Yes, Ryan Braun let down a lot of Brewer fans, myself included, when he broke the rules, and again to an even greater degree when he lied about what he did. But the media has been completely out of control from the very beginning, printing one inaccuracy, or completely fabricated story, after another. The media and Major League Baseball have both been complicit in their pursuit of Ryan Braun. TJ Quinn, a writer for ESPN, to the best of my knowledge, is the one that broke the story. Citing "unnamed sources", he wrote an article appearing on ESPN.com that Braun had "tested positive for a performance-enhancing drug." And then, he wrote this: Quote:
Ryan Braun tested positive for elevated levels of testosterone in the fall of 2011. From what I have read, the test was taken right before the end of the Milwaukee Brewers-Arizona Diamondbacks post season series. Braun was one of several players who gave urine samples to collector Dino Laurenzi Jr on this particular afternoon. The levels of T in Braun's urine were reportedly the highest the lab in Montreal had ever seen since Major League Baseball's introduction of the Joint Drug Agreement in 2006. ESPN reported that Braun's T levels were "insanely high". The New York Daily News: Quote:
But both the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel and Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reported that Braun had tested positive for a banned substance, not a performance-enhancing drug. The Journal-Sentinel Quote:
Ryan Braun gives his statement at the Miller Park press conference after his appeal is overturned. You said he ruined an innocent man to save himself, correct? Here is exactly what he said in the press conference about the collector (whom he did not name, by the way) Transcript from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel Quote:
Is anything Ryan Braun said there not completely accurate? Dino Laurenzi Jr was suspended by his employer because he did not do his job properly, not because of anything Braun did or said. Can you or any of the people who have been claiming character assassination by Ryan Braun show why Laurenzi Jr did not drop off the samples as was required by his job? The verbiage is quite clear, that "all samples shall be taken immediately to FedEx on the day they’re collected absent unusual circumstances". In all the rancor directed at Ryan Braun by his dissenters, I don't recall one person providing an acceptable explanation for why the samples were not dropped off. Here is part of the statement made by Laurenzi Jr after his name was made public: Quote:
Quote:
Braun spoke publicly, stating that Anthony Bosch of Biogenesis was hired by his attorneys for questioning. They wanted to gain knowledge about the process he'd gone through with Manny Ramirez. Of course, there was ESPN again stating that Braun is guilty of using PED--again, and that he is lying about why his name appears on the Biogenesis paperwork. Remember, initially, Bosch supported what Braun said in his statement. He backed up Braun's explanation of why Braun's name appeared. It was only after Major League Baseball threatened to sue Bosch and his employees that Bosch corroborated MLB's assertion that Ryan Braun had used performance enhancing drugs. Only, it had previously been reported by multiple sources that Braun's testosterone spike was not due to a PED. But Braun was guilty this time, right? Major League Baseball, if you ask me, resorted to some draconian tactics to achieve their desired end result. They were so angered that independent arbitrator Shyam Das had sided with Braun that not long after the overturn, they fired him. THEN, Ken Rosenthal had this: Quote:
From the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel Quote:
Braun's account of what happened: Quote:
Again, written by Tom Haudricourt, from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel Quote:
At this point, you are going to still think Braun used a PED, Greg. That's fine. Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion. I am merely providing all of this information because it is important to me that the truth has at least a chance to cut through all the BS that's been printed. I mean, seriously, how many times did ESPN change it's story? 1. Ryan Braun tested positive for a PED. 2. Ryan Braun did not test positive for a PED, but a banned substance. 3. Ryan Braun tested positive for a banned substance used to treat an STD. Keep throwing them out, and the reading public is going to believe one variation, right? Then there was the story from Jeff Passan on Yahoo Sports. The one that asserted Ryan Braun contacted Joey Votto, Matt Kemp and Troy Tulowitzki, asking them for public support because collector Dino Laurenzi Jr was an anti-semitic Cubs fan out to get him! I find it amusing that the original article by Jeff Passan no longer appears on Yahoo Sports. Instead, another article in which Passan both backtracks, and attempts to place the blame on ESPN, appears. The revised article on Yahoo Sports Quote:
The day after the original article by Passan appeared on Yahoo Sports, both Joey Votto and Troy Tulowitzki flatly denied the conversation ever took place. Votto says Braun did not reach out to him Quote:
Troy Tulowitzki wants Ryan Braun to come clean and explain his suspension Quote:
This Passan story is emblematic of what's been going on with the sports media since the Braun story was first broken. And by the time they're done, you read comments from people, and they're calling Braun a pariah. People saying that Braun is a sociopath, like O.J. Simpson. The quantum leaps people make is just sad. Yes, Ryan Braun used something he shouldn't have. He broke the rules to try and get healthy. The Brewers had won 96 games in 2011. That's the most in team history. We finally had a team capable of winning a World Series, something that the Brewers have never done in their 40 year history. And Ryan Braun, playing at well below 100%, knew this was their one chance to win a title with this core of players that had gone through the minor leagues together (Rickie Weeks, JJ Hardy, Prince Fielder, Corey Hart and Braun), as Prince Fielder was surely leaving Milwaukee once the season ends. So, Braun does something dumb. He uses two substances in an effort to expedite the healing of a calf injury that had been plaguing him the entire season, a calf injury so bad that the Brewers sent Braun for an MRI, and considered putting him on the DL. And while he didn't take a performance enhancer as we understand them, he did take something to try and get as close to normal as possible. I suppose that could be looked at as a performance enhancer of sorts. But Ryan Braun did not break the rules to cheat the game, or hit more home runs. He did so to try and get better. He tried to be at the same level he almost always was so he could help deliver a World Series to the city that had embraced him. Ryan Braun had signed a huge $105 million extension through the 2020 season before the 2011 season had even started. So, the assertion that Braun cheated to make more money is completely off the mark. Braun extended his contract, foregoing the chance to make more money as a free agent, because he loved Milwaukee. Braun is very active working with charities in southeast Wisconsin. He started two different businesses in Milwaukee, a clothing company, and a restaurant with friend Aaron Rodgers. In doing so, he created jobs. Braun did all this because he loved Milwaukee. He took two substances he shouldn't have so he could give Milwaukee, a great baseball town, something it hadn't had since 1957. His actions were wrong. His lying to cover it up was worse. But I don't think his motivation was self-serving at all. And as I said, he deserved the suspension he served at the end of last season. But before you call him a pariah again, Greg, please try to get some facts. Braun is not the self-centered, pampered athlete he's been made out to be. He's actually a good guy. Troy Tulowitzki said that even after all this, he still considers Braun a friend. Do you think he'd say that if Braun was a bad man, or somebody he couldn't respect? Even during the Brewers-Nationals game today, the play by play guy for Washington was talking about Braun. He said "he's a really good guy that made a dumb mistake, and then made an even dumber mistake". Braun's image has been tarnished. He's been booed enough. He's trying to make amends. He called season ticket holders in the off season, and personally apologized to them. He listened to them when they told him they were angry, and that they felt betrayed. I don't know what else Braun can do besides go out there, and try to handle things the way he always has. I think he deserves a second chance.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. Last edited by the 'stache; 06-25-2014 at 07:13 PM. |
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