OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

And the reason nobody is clamoring for John Olerud to get in is because he was never the best player in baseball. Not by a long shot. Mattingly in his prime was putting up Triple Crown-worthy numbers while playing defense better than anybody else in his league. Keith Hernandez, while not ever the best player in the game, at least was voted the best player in his league for one year. And a big part of the reason he won the MVP is his defense. Somehow he did that while hitting 11 home runs. I guess the voters that year didn't get the memo that first basemen had to be power hitters. .

First of all, I never compared Olerud to Mattingly.

Secondly, the writers were enamored with Hernandez winning a batting title - but not enough to give him the award solo. He wasn't the best player in 1979 - Dave Winfield was.

Third, I still think the Olerud/Hernandez comparison holds. High average, elite defensive 1B. Except that Olerud hit for more power and had seasons with higher average than Keith reached.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

First of all, I never compared Olerud to Mattingly.

Secondly, the writers were enamored with Hernandez winning a batting title - but not enough to give him the award solo. He wasn't the best player in 1979 - Dave Winfield was.

Third, I still think the Olerud/Hernandez comparison holds. High average, elite defensive 1B. Except that Olerud hit for more power and had seasons with higher average than Keith reached.

Chris, you're right. You did not compare him to Mattingly. I did.

I would also agree with you that all things considered, Winfield was the best player in the NL that season.

And I absolutely agree that the comparison holds. Though I don't think you or I could find anybody with a high degree of baseball knowledge that would put Olerud's defensive abilities above Hernandez's. John won 3 Gold Gloves. Keith won 11. Again, I always like to throw in the disclaimer that Gold Glove wins alone do not accurately measure how good somebody is defensively (you could have two Gold Glove outfielders, yet one may be clearly better than the other). I just like it in certain instances where the comparison merits consideration. Receiving 3 Gold Glove Awards means for a time you were a very good defensive player (generally speaking, not always). But winning 11 Gold Gloves means you were highly regarded as a defensive player for quite a long time. You're flying in the rarefied air when you have double digit Gold Glove Award wins.

I guess for me, the bottom line is that I think a lot of players that have been labeled as "great players" do not get the consideration they merit when it comes to the Hall of Fame. That's on the BBWAA. It's too easy to look at Mattingly and say "his career numbers don't measure up".

[clydepepper]

Bill- In comparing Olerud to Hernandez, you failed to mention the fact that Olerud played at the same time as the immortal (without the 't' ) Rafael Palmeiro, who won a gold glove while playing only 28 games on defense in 1999, then told us about Viagra and how to impress congressmen before disappearing like a ghost that no one wants to remember.

At least Hernandez did not have to contend with that.


Anyway, I always compared, at least via their beautiful swings, Olerud to Ventura.

[sniffy5]

I'm a Yankee fan on Long Island and have no problem saying that Jeter has been overly-praised by the NY press since 1996, and as a result fans celebrate him way too much, IMHO. He WAS NOT the leader of multiple championship teams, as someone said. That would be O'Neill, if anyone. (Note that his Captain designation came after Paul retired.) And he's never been a captain in any sense of the word anyway. Never sticks up for teammates in the press, never does anything to fire up teammates on the field, stayed on the sidelines during bench clearing dust ups (talking to opposing player no less!!!). Some captain! Mark Messier he is not. I guess he "leads by example." Doesn't every good player do that? I only go on about this cause his monument out there next to Ruth and Dimagg will refer to him as "The Captain." Total nonsense. Hey Mr. Intangibles, can you do something tangible, like win at least ONE batting title or ONE MVP if you are going to be labeled as the best player of your generation??

[Runscott]

This should be simple: just take the least-deserving HOF'er at each position, and find the closest matches that have been omitted. You'll almost certainly be able to find a few who were better hitters and worse fielders, or better fielders and worse hitters, or who had better careers over a shorter period of time, or who had slightly worse careers over a longer period of time. Put them all in and let the watering-down continue.

[oldjudge]

Dave Orr and Pete Browning are the two best 19th century hitters not in the Hall. Orr had a stroke after eight seasons which ended his career. Otherwise, he might be in the Hall already.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Bill- In comparing Olerud to Hernandez, you failed to mention the fact that Olerud played at the same time as the immortal (without the 't' ) Rafael Palmeiro, who won a gold glove while playing only 28 games on defense in 1999, then told us about Viagra and how to impress congressmen before disappearing like a ghost that no one wants to remember.

At least Hernandez did not have to contend with that.


Anyway, I always compared, at least via their beautiful swings, Olerud to Ventura.

I never said that the Gold Glove Award was perfect. I think I referenced a few times where Jeter won the Award and didn't really deserve it. But if you research Hernandez or Mattingly, besides the hardware, it's said repeatedly that the two were considered the best defensive players at their position while they were playing. I think most of the time, the Awards are handed to the most deserving player. Sometimes they do get it wrong, though. Absolutely.

[ejharrington]

Hernandez was a winner everywhere he went and made his teammates better. Look at the Mets pre-Hernandez and post-Hernandez. That's the ultimate sign of a great player. I'm not going to argue 1B is as important a defensive position as SS/2B/3B but it is underrated in that a great 1B can make mediocre infielders much better as they otherwise are. This does not show up in the stat sheets but if you're an erratic thrower you don't overthink a throw when you know your 1B can bail you out if your throw is off. Hernandez was the best fielding 1B ever. Anybody can just look up WAR and say one player is similar to another. WAR is useful but (especially with regards to defense) is flawed.

The HOF is incomplete without him and I hope his peers correct the mistake the writers made.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Hernandez was a winner everywhere he went and made his teammates better. Look at the Mets pre-Hernandez and post-Hernandez. That's the ultimate sign of a great player. I'm not going to argue 1B is as important a defensive position as SS/2B/3B but it is underrated in that a great 1B can make mediocre infielders much better as they otherwise are. This does not show up in the stat sheets but if you're an erratic thrower you don't overthink a throw when you know your 1B can bail you out if your throw is off. Hernandez was the best fielding 1B ever. Anybody can just look up WAR and say one player is similar to another. WAR is useful but (especially with regards to defense) is flawed.

The HOF is incomplete without him and I hope his peers correct the mistake the writers made.

Uh, no he didn't. Check the Cleveland years, where he took a pile of money and basically never stepped foot in town.

[pbspelly]

I love that story about Olerud and Henderson, whether it is true or not.

I don't have anything against Olerud, and really don't have an opinion about whether he deserves to be in the Hall, but as an avid Mets fan for decades, I can tell you that Hernandez meant much more to his team. Besides his fielding and hitting, he was the first team captain in Mets history and really kept a young, and notably rambunctious, team together. He was known for counseling pitchers during tight situations, a job usually designated for the shortstop, and even called pitches for some of the young guys.

His value may be reflected in the MVP voting. Hernandez was named on the ballot eight different times, winning it once and coming close two other times. Olerud was listed only twice, coming in third in his best year.

And while Olerud was certainly an excellent fielding first baseman, Hernandez was so adept on bunts and at throwing to all bases that he changed the position. The Mets even used to have him handle outfield relay throws sometimes instead of the second baseman (although with Gregg Jeffries and Wally Backman at second, that is a bit more understandable). As one commentator has stated, "If you never saw him play, it's hard to describe how a first baseman can be such an impact player in the field. Just saying he won eleven consecutive Gold Gloves doesn't do him anything near justice. He was a master at fielding bunts, often cutting down the runner at second, and covered an enormous amount of ground. He covered a multitude of sins handling throws. Who else could hold together an infield that sometimes included Wally Backman at second, Howard Johnson at third, and Kevin Mitchell at short - on a first place team"

Bill James even devised a stat based on Hernandez, after figuring out that one way to measure a first baseman's range was to count assists at all bases other than first, and that Hernandez was making 20-30 more outs per season than the average team. He named it, "The Keith Hernandez Breakthrough.“

According to one sabermetric stat (Total Zone Runs), Hernandez's defense saved 117 runs in his career, the most ever for a first baseman. Olerud comes in fourth at 97, still excellent, but nearly 20% behind.

All this having been said, Hernandez still has to answer for a few things. Besides the short career and the admitted drug use, many consider his mustache and his "Just For Men" ads unpardonable.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Uh, no he didn't. Check the Cleveland years, where he took a pile of money and basically never stepped foot in town.

He was past his prime, like saying Steve Carlton isn't a HOFer based on the end of his career.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

He was past his prime, like saying Steve Carlton isn't a HOFer based on the end of his career.

You said he was a winner everywhere and made his teams better. I say he was a money-grabbing SOB with no interest in playing for Cleveland, just cashing the checks.

[earlywynnfan]

To get the thread moving again:

Bob Howsam!

[billyb]

Both Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker, as they have turned more double players then any other double play combination, ever. Between them, 12 All Star appearances 7 gold Gloves, and that is just the defensive side.

Offensively, between them they averaged over 280, hit 429 home runs, I rookie of the year award, one World series MVP award, 3 Silver slugger awards at SS and another 4 Silver Slugger Awards at second base.

Tinkers, Evers made the Hall with their double play numbers, but they are now ranked 10th, while the best DP combination is left looking at the "HALL" from the outside.

THEY SHOULOD GO IN TOGETHER.