Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Pop Lloyd is probably the top man on the list

I agree, but pretty good arguments could also be made for Willie Wells, Dick Lundy and perhaps Dobie Moore

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I agree, but pretty good arguments could also be made for Willie Wells, Dick Lundy and perhaps Dobie Moore

Dobie Moore:

His career ended abruptly in mid-1926 when he was shot in the leg by a girlfriend and suffered a compound fracture jumping from a second-story balcony to escape from her. He reportedly played semi-pro ball in Detroit into the 1930s as a stiff-legged first baseman.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dobie Moore:

His career ended abruptly in mid-1926 when he was shot in the leg by a girlfriend and suffered a compound fracture jumping from a second-story balcony to escape from her. He reportedly played semi-pro ball in Detroit into the 1930s as a stiff-legged first baseman.

Definition of a bad day.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Ernie Banks had 5 40+ HR seasons as a shortstop.

[ctownboy]

Have Jeter put up the same stats while playing short stop for the Pittsburgh Pirates for the last 20 years and see how many people drool over him as compared to him being on the Yankees......

If Dave Concepcion or Alan Trammell had put up their stats while playing for the Yankees, both would be in the Hall of Fame right now.

David

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Have Jeter put up the same stats while playing short stop for the Pittsburgh Pirates for the last 20 years and see how many people drool over him as compared to him being on the Yankees......

If Dave Concepcion or Alan Trammell had put up their stats while playing for the Yankees, both would be in the Hall of Fame right now.

David

I have always agreed that there is a Yankee bias in baseball as well as a Giants, Bears and Steelers bias in football. But I still believe (and I am not a Yankee fan) that Jeter would be in the discussion for best ever no matter where he played, but of course that's pure speculation

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Cubs1969

Ernie Banks had 5 40+ HR seasons as a shortstop.

Alex had six. Consecutive.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I am a 25 year SABR guy but WAR and some of the other new stats are just garbage for math guys to feel like they are part of the game.

Wagner is in a class by himself while defensively Ozzie is so far ahead of everyone else it is not funny.

Then come the offensive guys!

[Exhibitman]

A-Roid is a cheater. There is no need to consider anything else. His record is tainted.

A plug here for Arky Vaughan. Truly a victim of his teams in terms of publicity and recognition today. I'd take him and Mazeroski as a DP combo any day.

I don't know that the true half-career players should be considered in the same breath as a career SS.

Omar V. Another amazing player who is not given his due. I'll take him and Mazeroski too.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Alex had six. Consecutive.

Alex Rodriguez also put those numbers up in an era when there were video game offensive numbers. I'm not saying that Rodriguez wasn't a great player, but his numbers are inflated playing in the era he did.

To me, Ernie Banks hitting 40 home runs a season as a shortstop is far more impressive than Alex Rodriguez doing it. And again, keeping the era in mind, what Robin Yount did in 1982 is more impressive than any season Rodriguez ever had as as a shortstop.

[JasonD08]

Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2 if you are talking about the position period. The rest isn't even close. If you factor hitting in (this is a discussion about playing a defensive position) then it is obviously different. Jeter is not even in the top 5.

[pcoz]

In their prime, Arod & Nomar were always better defensively & offensively with batting titles & MVP's. If Arod didn't move to 3rd, Jeter would've never won a Gold Glove or Silver Slugger award. Jeter has obviously had the longevity/consistency to be in the top 10. But, to Arod's point, Jeter never had to be the guy. He was overrated defensively, never hit for power, but was a solid hitter for average. If he wasn't on the Yankees, he wouldn't even be thought of in the top 10 even though he should be. Wagner for sure is #1, but not sure where I'd put Jeter. He isn't close to the best defensively or offensively, but as a total package, a model of reliability. So, somewhere in the top 10.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2 if you are talking about the position period. The rest isn't even close. If you factor hitting in (this is a discussion about playing a defensive position) then it is obviously different. Jeter is not even in the top 5.

I grew up watching Mark Belanger and I would put him with anyone in a purely fielding discussion.

[bbcard1]

I would agree Jeter is a first ballot hall of famer, but I am not sure I would take him in the top five shortstops, if so he would probably be #5. We are in this weird era where we unreasonably amplify a person's achievements at the time of their death or at their retirement. I remember someone saying that Tony Gwynn was not only one of the best baseball players ever, but the best people ever. That's a really big claim. When Gerald Ford died I remember someone comparing him to Lincoln. There's not really a great harm in it, but it doesn't mean it's accurate. Jeter was consistently excellent for a very long time, but I am not sure there was a moment when he was considered the most dominant player in the game, a claim two of his contemporaries at the same position could argue (Rodriguez and possibly Garciaparra).

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's weird how Jeter's WAR stats are really mediocre (12th among SSs) but in some other categories he is really high (11th among ALL players in hof monitor). Bottom line, one of those players I think that just defies statistics. ARod blows him away statistically, but who would you want?