Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

clydepepper · #1 08-04-2014, 02:47 AM

Impressive argument and research to back it up, Bill.

However, in my opinion, your statement overvalues stolen bases - which is the easiest way to exclude Ripken.

Let's remember what the subject is specifically, not which player who played shortstop (for Yount & Banks) is the best overall player...

just which is the best shortstop.

JasonD08 · #2 08-04-2014, 06:36 AM

Now factor in hitting and its a different picture. Ozzie is on top without nobody close if we are only talking about the position defensively. Like I said if we factor in offensive numbers it may be a lot different. We did not watch but I would go out on a limb and say there is no way Wagner got to the balls he did. Yount was extremely talented but no where close on defensive range. Vizquel would be the only one closer. Jeter, Ripken, Vaughan, Yount no. If you go by offensive numbers then Ozzie would not be in top 5.

bbcard1 · #3 08-04-2014, 07:05 AM

Not to take this thread in an entirely different direction, but when I grew up in the 1970s which is well before many statistical refinements were made, it was generally acknowledged that Joe Cronin was the second be shortstop to all time, certainly the best ever in the AL. Not even in the conversation anymore and has been supplanted by many of his contemporaries.

jbhofmann · #4 08-04-2014, 07:26 AM

I agree that Larkin is often way undervalued. It may sound harsh, but if the cat in St. Louis isn't doing back flips doesn't have the legacy he has.

Larkin was a hell of a defensive SS that also hit. If Smith was in the AL, he'd likely have had close to 10 GG.

brewing · #5 08-04-2014, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbhofmann

I agree that Larkin is often way undervalued. It may sound harsh, but if the cat in St. Louis isn't doing back flips doesn't have the legacy he has.

Larkin was a hell of a defensive SS that also hit. If Smith was in the AL, he'd likely have had close to 10 GG.

Underrated is Alan Trammell.

BB Ref lifetime WAR
Larkin 70.2
Trammell 70.4

Larkin 1st ballot HoFer, and Trammell nowhere close to induction.

jhs5120 · #6 08-04-2014, 08:03 AM

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

Of the 19 players in baseball history to have a more productive offensive career, only THREE of them played in the last 30 years (Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson) and of those three only Henderson hasn't been linked to steroids.

I think:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

Derek has been the best shortstop since integration and Wagner prior. It's a given that pre-integration baseball was a less competitive time in the sport, but I do not want to underscore Wagner's career because of it.

I discount Alex Rodriguez because of his inflated numbers and his time at 3B.

bbcard1 · #7 08-04-2014, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

I think formulas cease to become useful when you can look at something an simply tell it is not true. I don't think any serious fan who prefer to have Jeter over DiMaggio or Foxx.

howard38 · #8 08-04-2014, 10:42 AM

[QUOTE=bbcard1;1305787]I think formulas cease to become useful when you can look at something an simply tell it is not true. I don't think any serious fan who prefer to have Jeter over DiMaggio or Foxx.[/QUOTE
Offensive WAR, I believe, rates Jeter's production as compared to other shortstops only. Foxx ranks lower because he is rated against first basemen which in his time alone included Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, Hal Trosky, etc.

Paul S · #9 08-04-2014, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I think formulas cease to become useful when you can look at something an simply tell it is not true. I don't think any serious fan who prefer to have Jeter over DiMaggio or Foxx.

As far as I can tell Joe and Jimmy never played shortstop. However, I decided to ask them:

Me, to Double X: Jimmy, tell me about your WAR years.

XX: I was lucky enough to have my career fall between both of them.

Me, to Joe: Tell me about your WAR years.

DiMag: I went from California to Hawaiii to Atlantic City.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjIZwv5aENQ

the 'stache · #10 08-05-2014, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

Of the 19 players in baseball history to have a more productive offensive career, only THREE of them played in the last 30 years (Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson) and of those three only Henderson hasn't been linked to steroids.

I think:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

Derek has been the best shortstop since integration and Wagner prior. It's a given that pre-integration baseball was a less competitive time in the sport, but I do not want to underscore Wagner's career because of it.

I discount Alex Rodriguez because of his inflated numbers and his time at 3B.

No way is Jeter the second best shortstop. Not even close. He's played a lot of games at shortstop. That's why he appears so high on your list. While there is something to be said for playing the position for so long, he's never been the most dynamic player at his position.

Jayworld · #11 08-04-2014, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Not to take this thread in an entirely different direction, but when I grew up in the 1970s which is well before many statistical refinements were made, it was generally acknowledged that Joe Cronin was the second be shortstop to all time, certainly the best ever in the AL. Not even in the conversation anymore and has been supplanted by many of his contemporaries.

I'm right there with you on Joe Cronin; can't believe he's not on more lists here in the thread. Wagner was the best at the position, but Cronin should be up there�.

the 'stache · #12 08-04-2014, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Impressive argument and research to back it up, Bill.

However, in my opinion, your statement overvalues stolen bases - which is the easiest way to exclude Ripken.

I know that I did briefly mention statistical plateaus that Yount reached, and how it was more impressive that Yount reached them as a shortstop. But the statistical comps I put up immediately afterword weren't meant to exclude Ripken, or anybody else. In fact, they weren't meant to be a comparison to other shortstops at all. They were really put up there to place the entirety of Yount's career numbers into context.

When looking at Yount's career numbers, people often tried to dismiss him by saying he only hit 250 home runs, or only hit .285. They don't take into consideration that Yount only played 64 games in the minor leagues, that he was picked out of high school, sent to the minors for a few months, then inserted into a Major League lineup at 18. He learned how to hit in the Majors. He was never afforded the time most baseball players get to perfect their craft. His career batting average suffers because while most Major League players don't come up to the big leagues now until they're 24 or 25, Yount was a teenager when he got the job. If you look at what Yount did from age 24 on, he was a career .293 hitter. So, as I so often try to do in these types of discussions, I am trying to place Yount's career as a whole into a proper context. What I was attempting to do, Raymond, was simply show that his career metrics, taken together, were more impressive than any of them were alone.

250 home runs alone isn't impressive.
250 home runs and 250 stolen bases is a little more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, and 2,500 hits is more impressive,
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 hits, and a 75.00 career WAR is even more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 career hits, a 75.00 career WAR, and 500 doubles...is even more impressive.

See what I'm trying to get at? There were a lot of players that hit more home runs than Yount. There were also a lot of players that stole more bases than Yount. But how many did all the things that Yount did? He did a lot of things very well. And that, I think more than anything, is the greatest compliment that could be paid to Yount. He could do so many things well. He had really good power, had really good speed. He was a tremendous fielder, he was a great pure hitter. He was a clutch hitter. And he was a leader.

Robin Yount's greatness cannot simply be measured in a few stats. You really had to see him play to truly appreciate just how gifted he was. People often said that Joe DiMaggio made everything look so easy. Well, that's Yount. When you looked at him in the field, he was like Tulowitzki is now. So graceful. The way he broke to the ball. The way he stabbed the ball on a short bounce, the way he set himself while momentum was carrying his body towards third base, and let loose a perfect strike to first base. Everything the guy did was like watching poetry. He did the things that just don't show up in the box score. While baseball, more than any sport, lends itself to statistical analysis, numbers cannot capture the "wow" factor that some players had. One might look at Mickey Mantle's career stats, see his 536 home runs, and think "ok, he was 15th or 16th all-time in home runs." While that is an accurate statement, in a way, it does a disservice to Mantle. A home run that just squeaks over the wall in right field, where the fence is 318 feet, counts the same as a home run that hits the facade of the upper deck at Yankee Stadium. But are they the same hit? Absolutely not. Anybody that was at a Yankees game in the 50s and early 60s will tell you that Mantle could have hit a ball to heaven so God could see the stitches. And while Yankee fans might still worship Mantle in a way, and non Yankee fans, or baseball fans that didn't see him play might roll there eyes, there's a reason he's so revered today, and it's not because he looked like somebody out of central casting in Hollywood. When Mantle hit a home run, he put the fear of God in opposing pitchers.

Yet that doesn't show up in the box score.

Yount was like that in a different way. When he was on, the Brewers were going to win. He was going to do whatever it took to beat you. He might hit only one home run in a game. Then he'll make a diving catch for the third out, robbing two runs from the other team. Then he'll make a perfect relay throw on a ball hit deep to left center, and keep a guy at third from scoring. Yount was magical to watch. He really was. And because he played in Milwaukee, like Clemente before him in Pittsburgh, and even like Aaron when he was in Milwaukee, fewer people saw, or appreciated just how great he was.

howard38 · #13 08-05-2014, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I know that I did briefly mention statistical plateaus that Yount reached, and how it was more impressive that Yount reached them as a shortstop. But the statistical comps I put up immediately afterword weren't meant to exclude Ripken, or anybody else. In fact, they weren't meant to be a comparison to other shortstops at all. They were really put up there to place the entirety of Yount's career numbers into context.

When looking at Yount's career numbers, people often tried to dismiss him by saying he only hit 250 home runs, or only hit .285. They don't take into consideration that Yount only played 64 games in the minor leagues, that he was picked out of high school, sent to the minors for a few months, then inserted into a Major League lineup at 18. He learned how to hit in the Majors. He was never afforded the time most baseball players get to perfect their craft. His career batting average suffers because while most Major League players don't come up to the big leagues now until they're 24 or 25, Yount was a teenager when he got the job. If you look at what Yount did from age 24 on, he was a career .293 hitter. So, as I so often try to do in these types of discussions, I am trying to place Yount's career as a whole into a proper context. What I was attempting to do, Raymond, was simply show that his career metrics, taken together, were more impressive than any of them were alone.

250 home runs alone isn't impressive.
250 home runs and 250 stolen bases is a little more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, and 2,500 hits is more impressive,
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 hits, and a 75.00 career WAR is even more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 career hits, a 75.00 career WAR, and 500 doubles...is even more impressive.

See what I'm trying to get at? There were a lot of players that hit more home runs than Yount. There were also a lot of players that stole more bases than Yount. But how many did all the things that Yount did? He did a lot of things very well. And that, I think more than anything, is the greatest compliment that could be paid to Yount. He could do so many things well. He had really good power, had really good speed. He was a tremendous fielder, he was a great pure hitter. He was a clutch hitter. And he was a leader.

Robin Yount's greatness cannot simply be measured in a few stats. You really had to see him play to truly appreciate just how gifted he was. People often said that Joe DiMaggio made everything look so easy. Well, that's Yount. When you looked at him in the field, he was like Tulowitzki is now. So graceful. The way he broke to the ball. The way he stabbed the ball on a short bounce, the way he set himself while momentum was carrying his body towards third base, and let loose a perfect strike to first base. Everything the guy did was like watching poetry. He did the things that just don't show up in the box score. While baseball, more than any sport, lends itself to statistical analysis, numbers cannot capture the "wow" factor that some players had. One might look at Mickey Mantle's career stats, see his 536 home runs, and think "ok, he was 15th or 16th all-time in home runs." While that is an accurate statement, in a way, it does a disservice to Mantle. A home run that just squeaks over the wall in right field, where the fence is 318 feet, counts the same as a home run that hits the facade of the upper deck at Yankee Stadium. But are they the same hit? Absolutely not. Anybody that was at a Yankees game in the 50s and early 60s will tell you that Mantle could have hit a ball to heaven so God could see the stitches. And while Yankee fans might still worship Mantle in a way, and non Yankee fans, or baseball fans that didn't see him play might roll there eyes, there's a reason he's so revered today, and it's not because he looked like somebody out of central casting in Hollywood. When Mantle hit a home run, he put the fear of God in opposing pitchers.

Yet that doesn't show up in the box score.

Yount was like that in a different way. When he was on, the Brewers were going to win. He was going to do whatever it took to beat you. He might hit only one home run in a game. Then he'll make a diving catch for the third out, robbing two runs from the other team. Then he'll make a perfect relay throw on a ball hit deep to left center, and keep a guy at third from scoring. Yount was magical to watch. He really was. And because he played in Milwaukee, like Clemente before him in Pittsburgh, and even like Aaron when he was in Milwaukee, fewer people saw, or appreciated just how great he was.

Why discount just his batting average from his early years? Without his seasons prior to age 24 he wouldn't have reached any of the benchmarks you listed: 250 HRs, 250 SBs, 2,500 hits or 75 WAR. In either case I don't think anyone here is dismissing him as a great player. If anything, fair or not, he falls on some people's list of top shortstops because he played almost half his career in center field.

npa589 · #14 08-05-2014, 09:57 AM

I think Kurkjian is the best SS!

clydepepper · #15 08-10-2014, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by npa589

I think Kurkjian is the best SS!

Nate-

Just to be clear, Kurkjian is a Hobbitt, not a shortstop.

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