OT: Ebay Policy Change

[granite75]

All my eBay purchases are buy it now. I have searches set up for what I'm looking for and if it's what I consider a good price, I take it. If not, I keep looking. Ultimately, I have waited 7 days for an auction to end only to get sniped at the end or have the price end up too high.

[toppcat]

EBay is still useful for buying, to a degree and depending upon what you are looking for, but as a seller I can't see it being too easy anymore. I stopped selling years ago on the site; I use the BST now for pretty much all my selling plus the occasional auction.

[ctownboy]

Leon,

I understand that eBay is a business and can do whatever they want (within the law).

What I am having a hard time understanding is how, right before you place a bid, they tell you that by doing so you are entering into a binding legal agreement. Then, after you have won an auction, they can say that you can undo that binding agreement, without any penalty, if you say you want to cancel your winning bid within an hour of the close of the auction.

To me, a bid being a binding legal agreement is a solid thing. What eBay seems to be saying is that it is a binding agreement up until a point that it is not a binding legal agreement.

I am trying to think of some other areas where this is the case.

For example, I go to a bank and get a loan for a house or a car and sign the contract then I have entered into a binding legal agreement. Even within an hour, if I decide I have made a mistake, I can not just back out of the deal. I have to go and sign some other legal papers to back out. I can't just throw my hands up and say I don't want to go through with what I agreed to.

David

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Leon,

I understand that eBay is a business and can do whatever they want (within the law).

What I am having a hard time understanding is how, right before you place a bid, they tell you that by doing so you are entering into a binding legal agreement. Then, after you have won an auction, they can say that you can undo that binding agreement, without any penalty, if you say you want to cancel your winning bid within an hour of the close of the auction.

To me, a bid being a binding legal agreement is a solid thing. What eBay seems to be saying is that it is a binding agreement up until a point that it is not a binding legal agreement.

I am trying to think of some other areas where this is the case.

For example, I go to a bank and get a loan for a house or a car and sign the contract then I have entered into a binding legal agreement. Even within an hour, if I decide I have made a mistake, I can not just back out of the deal. I have to go and sign some other legal papers to back out. I can't just throw my hands up and say I don't want to go through with what I agreed to.

David

If the contract you signed said you could throw up your hands and back out then you could. That is what is happening here. I guarantee ebay changes their rules to reflect their new stance. Personally I don't like it but I am not their CFO....

[thecatspajamas]

After rereading the thread on the ebay boards, I think there is some misunderstanding about what exactly happens. It's not that the buyer clicks cancel and is immediately off the hook. The way I am understanding it is that the buyer clicks Cancel, and then the seller either clicks Agree (off the hook) or Decline (buyer still has to pay). Very similar to the way it is now where a seller can click to cancel a sale but the buyer has to click Agree before it's cancelled.

IF I'm understanding that right, it's not as bad as my original assumptions, though I think it doers still send the wrong message to buyers. Also, buyer's (predictably spiteful) reaction aside, it's not clear what eBay's reaction to a seller denying a buyer's cancellation request will be.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

After rereading the thread on the ebay boards, I think there is some misunderstanding about what exactly happens. It's not that the buyer clicks cancel and is immediately off the hook. The way I am understanding it is that the buyer clicks Cancel, and then the seller either clicks Agree (off the hook) or Decline (buyer still has to pay). Very similar to the way it is now where a seller can click to cancel a sale but the buyer has to click Agree before it's cancelled.

IF I'm understanding that right, it's not as bad as my original assumptions, though I think it doers still send the wrong message to buyers. Also, buyer's (predictably spiteful) reaction aside, it's not clear what eBay's reaction to a seller denying a buyer's cancellation request will be.

I'd wager it would help to cause a "defect" at some point in time.

Whether a spiteful buyer, or Ebay's usual condescending "because I said so!".

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I'd wager it would help to cause a "defect" at some point in time.

Whether a spiteful buyer, or Ebay's usual condescending "because I said so!".

I don't doubt that. But at least it puts us back somewhat closer to the current system where the buyer has to actually communicate with the seller to get out of a transaction than I had previously thought. Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly feel that giving the bidders any kind of inclination that they may not be held responsible for their bids is a big step in the wrong direction. And if someone is determined not to pay, no amount of cajoling or explaining to them why they should be responsible is going to change that (see my latest neg).

I just want to be sure I have the opportunity to talk some sense into those who may not be determined, but just ignorant and/or stupid.

Case in point: I once sold a set of 4 Star Wars comic books to a buyer who contacted me when they arrived saying, "Why did you only send me issues #1 and #3? Did you make a mistake? I want all 4 issues that I paid for." My reply was something like, "Umm, please don't take this the wrong way, but can you turn them over and check the back? The missing issues should have been bagged back-to-back with the issues you said you received" to which he responded, "Oh, nevermind. Thanks!" Had I not had the opportunity to communicate with this knucklehead, under the new return system, I would have gotten all 4 issues back in the original mailer loosely resealed with 1/2" cellophane tape, had to give a full refund including original shipping, billed for the return shipping, and gotten dinged for a defect all because he didn't think to flip the books over.

It never ceases to amaze me how eBay consistently underestimates sellers' ability to voluntarily provide good customer service, and overestimates the intelligence and honesty of the average buyer.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly feel that giving the bidders any kind of inclination that they may not be held responsible for their bids is a big step in the wrong direction. And if someone is determined not to pay, no amount of cajoling or explaining to them why they should be responsible is going to change that (see my latest neg).

Oh, even worse was one of your neutrals because a press photo had the newspaper version of the photo attached to the back.

That's gotta be infuriating.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

After rereading the thread on the ebay boards, I think there is some misunderstanding about what exactly happens. It's not that the buyer clicks cancel and is immediately off the hook. The way I am understanding it is that the buyer clicks Cancel, and then the seller either clicks Agree (off the hook) or Decline (buyer still has to pay). Very similar to the way it is now where a seller can click to cancel a sale but the buyer has to click Agree before it's cancelled.

IF I'm understanding that right, it's not as bad as my original assumptions, though I think it doers still send the wrong message to buyers. Also, buyer's (predictably spiteful) reaction aside, it's not clear what eBay's reaction to a seller denying a buyer's cancellation request will be.

Thank you, Lance, for the clarification, because that is exactly how I was reading it.

[glchen]

Regarding allowing buyers to cancel their purchases an hour after they win an auction, I would just think of this as ebay is trying to become more like Amazon or even Walmart/Target where buyers are allowed to return items. ebay wants to position itself as one big superstore which everything buyers want rather than just a big auction house / flea market. So think of it that way. Regarding binding contracts, I thought many states including California where ebay is located had a 2-3 day "cooling off" period where contracts could be cancelled. Obviously, I'm not a lawyer so this might have nothing to do with what ebay is doing.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by glchen

Regarding allowing buyers to cancel their purchases an hour after they win an auction, I would just think of this as ebay is trying to become more like Amazon or even Walmart/Target where buyers are allowed to return items. ebay wants to position itself as one big superstore which everything buyers want rather than just a big auction house / flea market. So think of it that way. Regarding binding contracts, I thought many states including California where ebay is located had a 2-3 day "cooling off" period where contracts could be cancelled. Obviously, I'm not a lawyer so this might have nothing to do with what ebay is doing.

I am no lawyer either but In Texas certain purchases have a 3 day cancellation clause automatically with them. I believe it is mostly larger purchases, especially real estate (believe it or not).

A quick search turned up this...

https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov...mer/3day.shtml


.

[D. Bergin]

It subverts the entire auction process, along with allowing supposed shillers to throw up bids acting as "hidden reserves", with no repercussions whatsoever when they cancel their bids right after the auction ends.

As usual, it also creates more animosity between buyers and sellers, when it becomes more and more difficult to tell what is a shill bid, and what is just part of standard bidding procedure.

It also lends more credence to serial retractors, who are not actually shillers, but have become savvy "bidders", creating doubt in the auction system, manipulating auctions to serve their own purpose, whether it be financial or simply egotistical.

Plenty of honest sellers will suffer when accusations start to get thrown their way, because of these jag-offs, who will go from thoughtlessly throwing out bid retractions on the last day, sending an item tumbling downwards, to throwing out cancellations on the hour after an auction closes.

Ebay creates all these loopholes, and then play f@#*ing stupid when people start to take advantage of them.

[bobbyw8469]

Ebay creates all these loopholes, and then play f@#*ing stupid when people start to take advantage of them.

+1

[drcy]

eBay could put a limit on the number of retractions and backings out a buyer can make. That would help with the serial bid retractors, while allowing for a few honest mistakes.

I can understand a mistake bid or two, but don't know how someone could make more than two a month. Stay off the sauce. I recall making one and that was about fifteen years ago. I typed in an extra zero in my bid. If you're making five or ten a week, I think it can be safely defined as abusing the system.

I do agree that backing out of winning bids is a bad idea for auctions. For centuries the entire auction process has been based on the saying and rule "Goes to the highest bidder." The seller is required to sell to the highest bidder and, if the bidder can't or won't honor his bids, he's not supposed to be participating. Some would compare not honoring your winning bids to not honoring your gambling debts.

There's an entire Laurel and Hardy short about a grandfather clock they have to carry home after accidentally placing the winning bid on it at an auction and being threatened over if they didn't pay what they owed. Alas, the clock is run over by a car before they can get it home and Oliver's wife isn't too happy about his expenditure on a pile of scrap wood.



But, as I said, an honest error in bidding once in a while is understandable and excusable.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by drcy

eBay could put a limit on the number of retractions and backings out a buyer can make. That would help with the serial bid retractors, while allowing for a few honest mistakes.

Sounds simple, and I think Ebay actually had a cap on bid retractions at one time, sending out a warning to prospective bidders when they were doing it.

They stopped that practice a couple years ago or so for whatever reason, and it has run rampant ever since.

I'm sure there are tons of people who read these boards who have a ton of bid retractions, but will never admit to it. There's too many of these guys out there right now, for it not to be the case.

I could even go as far in my own auctions to outline a policy of losing your bidding rights in my auctions with a retraction or cancellation without a good excuse to me personally, I don't like the perception of shilling, don't bid on it if you don't want it, blah, blah, blah............but Ebay would shut ME down faster then I could formulate a sneeze during allergy season, because that would break with the continuity of their own policies.

It would make ME the bad guy.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Only list Buy It Nows with an immediate payment required.

Problem solved.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Only list Buy It Nows with an immediate payment required.

Problem solved.

So no more auctions?

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by glchen

I would just think of this as ebay is trying to become more like Amazon or even Walmart/Target where buyers are allowed to return items. ebay wants to position itself as one big superstore which everything buyers want rather than just a big auction house / flea market. So think of it that way.

+1

And along these same lines, I actually posted this exactly a month ago over on the non-sports side in another eBay gripe thread (amazing how often these things pop up):

Bottom line is that over the last few years, eBay has moved from looking at themselves as a platform that anyone can use to sell their stuff to seeing themselves as the overarching retailer (think Amazon without the warehousing responsibilities) and all of the individual sellers are just ants feeding merch into the machine. If you don't feed it in fast enough, you get penalized (I mean, not rewarded) for not shipping the next day. If there are any complaints about your merch, or how it was packed, or how quickly it got there, or how your tone sounded in the invoice you sent, or how you didn't promptly communicate your eternal gratitude for gracing you with an incremental bid on this poorly-described fuzzy-pictured obviously sub-par piece of merch and how dare you look at me that way and I don't like the way that your screenname makes me feel there's no way this is real and it wasn't delivered in time for my cousin's birthday didn't you know it was the day after the auction ended blazy blah blah... Any of that, and you darn well will be refunding the buyer's money including their shipping cost (because the overlords have already removed the funds from your scrip account), and you'll probably have to pay the buyer's return shipping as well or just let them keep it, and you'll still get the big red N(egative) on your account that you deserve because it's obviously the seller's fault no matter what happens. No, wait, eBay is the seller now, so you REALLY deserve what you got, and we're going to dock your pay (I mean, not reward you) at the end of the month too because you made us look bad.

Anyway, just more of the usual ranting and raving, but at the end I always duck my head down and head back up the ant hill with my next load of mid- to low-end merch. There's really no other good way to list/move a high volume of relatively low-priced material anywhere else. I don't want to take over the B/S/T boards anywhere (would be more on the baseball side at this point), and setting up my own website hasn't helped with anything sales-wise due to the lack of an advertising budget. I may hate a lot of eBay's practices and policies, but they still do a much better job of getting eyes on the items (though not as good as they used to).