Some rare and expensive bakery goodies......

[Brian Van Horn]

Rhett,

There is no fight and no fight is intended. The guy stated they are not real. The prices on the backs were what he was seeking. They ended up in the hands of a guy from Maryland who put them on eBay. If the owner says they are not real, they are not real. Do I know if the guy had printing experience? No. Still, he was the owner and I can't get around his honesty. The cards are fakes.

The same paper is not an argument. Coming up with the same paper would not be difficult. Having knowledge of the cards and poses involved would take a little more research, but not impossible. Still these arguments are only peripheral. The guy did know what he was talking about when we spoke. With the exception of a poorly done Cobb on eBay a few years ago, no other examples have been found. Why? It's possible, just possible, the guy I spoke with may have only made one run of the cards. Here is a harder to find pose from the Standard Biscuit set that was in the grouping of the Herpolsheimers. The fact that it is harder to find, proves nothing, but if you guys want to use it as an example from this fake grouping, feel free:

[Leon]

In my opinion the 1921 Herpolsheimers are 100% real.. There is no doubt in my mind about it.

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, you never actually answered my question about actually looking at the cards closely and not from a distance in an album a decade ago. Did the guy you spoke to say he printed them himself or something? why was he so sure they are fake?

About the paper being easy to reproduce is silly, there is no way to match cardstock from 1921 perfectly and then after that duplicating the printing process perfectly. I think you are putting too much stock into the words of this person without actually looking at the cards themselves. Other than his words why are you so sure they are fake?

[Brian Van Horn]

Rhett,

When the explanation and the body language are indisputable it doesn't make any sense to argue with the gentleman. The cards are fakes. Paper for the cards of the era is not rare and, although I am not a paper expert, I would imagine finding similar paper to this day, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, next decade or next century would not be the most difficult of pursuits.

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, so you haven't actually looked at the cards then I take it as all you are talking about is what the guy said to you which IMO is not scientific and just the opinion of an unnamed person.

I'm not sure why you feel so strongly about this based only on the word of someone. About the paper... You are absolutely wrong if you think it would easy to reproduce a particular cardstock to make a reprint set.

Could it be, just maybe that the guy you spoke to didnt know what the heck he had? Everyone that has ever looked at these cards in person can attest to their being authentic. The cards are NOT fake!

[rhettyeakley]

Here is a card I own from the Herpolsheimer cards on ebay that I own...


Unknown pose of Henry that was not produced elsewhere showed up in that collection then just recently a card with the same image was found with... Holsum Type 2 back (a set that parallels the Herpolsheimer and Standard Biscuit D350-3 set). That would be some serious forethought on the part of the fake card maker to use an unknown image only to have one eventually be found that was authentic (but only after the Herpolsheimer's came to light).

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/1921-...-LOT28455.aspx

[Brian Van Horn]

Rhett,

The guy knew what he had and he stated, "They are not real." He knew of what he spoke. The guy after him who put it up on eBay may have had other intentions, but the guy I spoke to was honest and there is no getting around that point.

The paper of the time was not expensive and could not be for a caramel maker to cut and put into its products. Cost ratios.

I have never put a card from the set up against another set from the early twenties because I have no interest in the cards. We are not talking rocket science here, but simply inexpensive paper for print.

Now for one opinion which can be taken or left and is strictly peripheral to this discussion. As for the pattern on the back of the card which frames the advertisement, it has always been my opinion that someone simply saw a retro type design on either a table a door on a hutch or an advertising piece, thought that would be a good frame for the back of a fantasy card and took out a piece of paper to draw up the design. For all I know they may have seen a similar pattern on an old Pathe film and got the idea. Still, that is my opinion and nothing more.

What counts here is that the gentleman knew about the cards and knew that they were not authentic.

[Brian Van Horn]

Rhett,

The Henry card and the Davenport card I posted are in the same vein. It simply means the person who ran a sheet, maybe two, in a one run production knew of the sets. Both cards were in the grouping at Robert Morris.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rhett,

The guy knew what he had and he stated, "They are not real." He knew of what he spoke. The guy after him who put it up on eBay may have had other intentions, but the guy I spoke to was honest and there is no getting around that point.

The paper of the time was not expensive and could not be for a caramel maker to cut and put into its products. Cost ratios.

I have never put a card from the set up against another set from the early twenties because I have no interest in the cards. We are not talking rocket science here, but simply inexpensive paper for print.

Now for one opinion which can be taken or left and is strictly peripheral to this discussion. As for the pattern on the back of the card which frames the advertisement, it has always been my opinion that someone simply saw a retro type design on either a table a door on a hutch or an advertising piece, thought that would be a good frame for the back of a fantasy card and took out a piece of paper to draw up the design. For all I know they may have seen a similar pattern on an old Pathe film and got the idea. Still, that is my opinion and nothing more.

What counts here is that the gentleman knew about the cards and knew that they were not authentic.

I'm trying not to be mean (I really am) but your logic is not making any sense. All you are basing your opinion on is the opinion of someone else and not the actual evidence in front of you, at least it is there if you actually care to see it.

The amount of work to reproduce cards from 1921 and make them look like they are exactly the same as another set from 1921 is astronomical if one were trying to do it today. If you don't think this is the case then why aren't good fakes out there of T206 or other cards?

There are countless reasons that point that the Herp 1921 cards are real...just an example of what I am speaking of...

You stated... "As for the pattern on the back of the card which frames the advertisement, it has always been my opinion that someone simply saw a retro type design on either a table a door on a hutch or an advertising piece, thought that would be a good frame for the back of a fantasy card"

actually lets examine that back...


Here are two different Herpolsheimer cards I own (Weilman and Faber). Notice how the meander pattern on the back actually isn't identical on the two cards (pay close attention to the corners and how the pattern meets up with each other.)

Now, here are two Holsum Bread cards (Type 2's) that also have a meander pattern on back (albeit different), notice how they do not meet up exactly the same at the corners and make each card slightly different. The same is found on the D350-3 Standard Biscuit cards and other cards made by the same manufacturer in the process of printing the cards.

[Brian Van Horn]

Rhett,

The two things we can't get around are:

1. The guy's honesty.
2. Every single example out there, save the amateurish Cobb that was on eBay a few years ago, came from this guy's collection.

If the guy says they are fakes, they are fakes. He may have had two sheets in his run and they may have been of different tone. I do not know. I did not ask him. His honest straightforward statement was all I needed in the conversation. The handwriting on the card on the left was the $2.00 he was asking and the $1.00 on the right was the amount he was asking for that card.

As for the back design, I still think it is a retro look, but that is my opinion.