Some rare and expensive bakery goodies......

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rhett,

The guy knew what he had and he stated, "They are not real." He knew of what he spoke. The guy after him who put it up on eBay may have had other intentions, but the guy I spoke to was honest and there is no getting around that point.

The paper of the time was not expensive and could not be for a caramel maker to cut and put into its products. Cost ratios.

I have never put a card from the set up against another set from the early twenties because I have no interest in the cards. We are not talking rocket science here, but simply inexpensive paper for print.

Now for one opinion which can be taken or left and is strictly peripheral to this discussion. As for the pattern on the back of the card which frames the advertisement, it has always been my opinion that someone simply saw a retro type design on either a table a door on a hutch or an advertising piece, thought that would be a good frame for the back of a fantasy card and took out a piece of paper to draw up the design. For all I know they may have seen a similar pattern on an old Pathe film and got the idea. Still, that is my opinion and nothing more.

What counts here is that the gentleman knew about the cards and knew that they were not authentic.

I'm trying not to be mean (I really am) but your logic is not making any sense. All you are basing your opinion on is the opinion of someone else and not the actual evidence in front of you, at least it is there if you actually care to see it.

The amount of work to reproduce cards from 1921 and make them look like they are exactly the same as another set from 1921 is astronomical if one were trying to do it today. If you don't think this is the case then why aren't good fakes out there of T206 or other cards?

There are countless reasons that point that the Herp 1921 cards are real...just an example of what I am speaking of...

You stated... "As for the pattern on the back of the card which frames the advertisement, it has always been my opinion that someone simply saw a retro type design on either a table a door on a hutch or an advertising piece, thought that would be a good frame for the back of a fantasy card"

actually lets examine that back...


Here are two different Herpolsheimer cards I own (Weilman and Faber). Notice how the meander pattern on the back actually isn't identical on the two cards (pay close attention to the corners and how the pattern meets up with each other.)

Now, here are two Holsum Bread cards (Type 2's) that also have a meander pattern on back (albeit different), notice how they do not meet up exactly the same at the corners and make each card slightly different. The same is found on the D350-3 Standard Biscuit cards and other cards made by the same manufacturer in the process of printing the cards.

[Brian Van Horn]

Rhett,

The two things we can't get around are:

1. The guy's honesty.
2. Every single example out there, save the amateurish Cobb that was on eBay a few years ago, came from this guy's collection.

If the guy says they are fakes, they are fakes. He may have had two sheets in his run and they may have been of different tone. I do not know. I did not ask him. His honest straightforward statement was all I needed in the conversation. The handwriting on the card on the left was the $2.00 he was asking and the $1.00 on the right was the amount he was asking for that card.

As for the back design, I still think it is a retro look, but that is my opinion.

[timn1]

Brian,

These "two things we can't get around" make no sense to me--

1. Maybe you can't get past your opinion of the guy's honesty, but why you think anyone else should be so completely convinced by this I can't imagine. Not that I disbelieve the conversation took place, but all conversations are open to interpretation, and I see no reason to buy your account as the only way to read this guy.

2. I don't find it hard to believe at all that every known card 100 years later, or almost every one, could come from the same little hoard. I believe every M101-4 Burgess-Nash I've seen comes from one of two small groups.

I think Rhett's point is compelling: if it were so easy to create convincing fakes on old paper, surely someone would have done it with T206s long ago-

The nice thing is that we don't all have to agree on this, and it won't create any problem.

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rhett,

The two things we can't get around are:

1. The guy's honesty.
2. Every single example out there, save the amateurish Cobb that was on eBay a few years ago, came from this guy's collection.

If the guy says they are fakes, they are fakes. He may have had two sheets in his run and they may have been of different tone. I do not know. I did not ask him. His honest straightforward statement was all I needed in the conversation. The handwriting on the card on the left was the $2.00 he was asking and the $1.00 on the right was the amount he was asking for that card.

As for the back design, I still think it is a retro look, but that is my opinion.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by timn1

Brian,

These "two things we can't get around" make no sense to me--

1. Maybe you can't get past your opinion of the guy's honesty, but why you think anyone else should be so completely convinced by this I can't imagine. Not that I disbelieve the conversation took place, but all conversations are open to interpretation, and I see no reason to buy your account as the only way to read this guy.

2. I don't find it hard to believe at all that every known card 100 years later, or almost every one, could come from the same little hoard. I believe every M101-4 Burgess-Nash I've seen comes from one of two small groups.

I think Rhett's point is compelling: if it were so easy to create convincing fakes on old paper, surely someone would have done it with T206s long ago-

The nice thing is that we don't all have to agree on this, and it won't create any problem.

Tim,

I appreciate the input, but how can I get around the statement "They are not real."?

Also, how can I get around that no other card has surfaced, other than a poor imitation Cobb, in a hobby in which there are nearly countless collectors.

This is one heck of a mental gymnastics act to go through to get around what actually happened. I am not trying to be stubborn, but I am not going to come up with revisionist history. The cards are fake.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rhett,

The two things we can't get around are:

1. The guy's honesty.
2. Every single example out there, save the amateurish Cobb that was on eBay a few years ago, came from this guy's collection.

Wrong, I am perfectly comfortable "getting around" the two things listed above...

1. The guy had no idea that the cards were actually real but he thought they were fake!

Obviously, no evidence I provide can overcome this "honest" unnamed persons opinion in your mind as there is apparently no way the guy could possibly have been mistaken so I guess I will let it go but I hope you are never on a jury in a major case and are presented both evidence and an "honest guys" opinion as I wouldn't want to be the defendant in that case.

[ValKehl]

Brian,
You keep referring to this guy's "honesty." What makes you so darn certain about his honesty? Did you personally know him well? Or?

And, please tell us what sort of credentials you believe (or know) this guy had insofar as being knowledgeable and experienced re vintage baseball cards? Was he a long-time dealer and/or collector of vintage cards? Is/was he known within the hobby?

My guess is, that while this guy may be as honest as the day is long, he was ignorant with respect to what he had, and therefore he assumed the Herpolsheimers were not legit and wrote his selling prices on the backs of the cards.
Val

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Brian,
You keep referring to this guy's "honesty." What makes you so darn certain about his honesty? Did you personally know him well? Or?

And, please tell us what sort of credentials you believe (or know) this guy had insofar as being knowledgeable and experienced re vintage baseball cards? Was he a long-time dealer and/or collector of vintage cards? Is/was he known within the hobby?

My guess is, that while this guy may be as honest as the day is long, he was ignorant with respect to what he had, and therefore he assumed the Herpolsheimers were not legit and wrote his selling prices on the backs of the cards.
Val

Val,

This guy had cards at a show and was selling them from one to three dollars with many, but not all, having the price written on the back of the card. If he were dishonest would he not ask for more?

Further, when asked about the cards, if he was dishonest, would he state "They are not real."?

This is a pretty hard hand to beat on an honesty angle.

As for his knowledge, there are no other examples, save the amateurish Cobb, that are out there. If the guy says they are fake and he had, and, frankly, still has the monopoly from a lineage of ownership standpoint on the cards, they are fakes. It would tend to indicate, through this monopoly, that he had knowledge of their origin.

If the guy has all the cards known and says they are fakes, they are fakes. In view of the conversation, this guy was not ignorant to what he had.

[Leon]

Brian- you keep saying there are no other examples. That is 100% wrong. I had and sold 3-4 other examples, in very poor shape, a few years ago. Now what?

Proof- we lost the scan but here is one I sold....

http://b-lauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=1777

[darwinbulldog]

I don't see how honesty has anything to do with it, unless there's some rule I don't know of whereby being honest precludes someone from making a mistake, but that's clearly what happened. Is it more likely for an honest person to have real cards and believe them to be fake (I've done this myself at least once) or for someone to have invested tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to create convincing fakes using appropriate images whose appropriateness would not have been known until several years into the future; and, having already demonstrated himself capable of reproducing the printing and cardstock that would have existed in real cards, to modify them sufficiently to convince two people that they weren't real, all the while having no intention of doing any of this for a profit but being motivated instead by the fun of investing years of income on a lark that quite likely no one else in the world would ever have found out about? Honest (and self-injurious) mistake or time-traveling spendthrift? You decide.

But good luck persuading the guy who missed the chance to pick them up for a few bucks.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I don't see how honesty has anything to do with it, unless there's some rule I don't know of whereby being honest precludes someone from making a mistake, but that's clearly what happened. Is it more likely for an honest person to have real cards and believe them to be fake (I've done this myself at least once) or for someone to have invested tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to create convincing fakes using appropriate images whose appropriateness would not have been known until several years into the future; and, having already demonstrated himself capable of reproducing the printing and cardstock that would have existed in real cards, to modify them sufficiently to convince two people that they weren't real, all the while having no intention of doing any of this for a profit but being motivated instead by the fun of investing years of income on a lark that quite likely no one else in the world would ever have found out about? Honest (and self-injurious) mistake or time-traveling spendthrift? You decide.


But good luck persuading the guy who missed the chance to pick them up for a few bucks.

LOL on the last line.

If the gentleman is making a clear, honest and declarative statement that "They are not real." and he has all of the examples then and now, save the amateurish Cobb, the cards are fake. He knew of what he spoke and he was being honest. He was not mistaken.

If people want to persuade themselves these cards are real, feel free. I will just smile knowing that the only 1921 Herpolsheimers that are out there, save one poor attempt, were from this gentleman who knew of what he spoke. They are fakes.

[Brian Van Horn]

Leon,

Wait a minute. What I said was there are not other examples of the Herpolsheimers other than the one amateurish Cobb. On the Merchants Bakery, I stated there are the ones listed on eBay and the ones you got the last time they were listed on eBay. I also stated I didn't know if there were any Merchants Bakery cards that got past you. Just a clarification.

The link you posted is for a Merchants Bakery. Just trying to keep the two topics clear and separated.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Leon,

Wait a minute. What I said was there are not other examples of the Herpolsheimers other than the one amateurish Cobb. On the Merchants Bakery, I stated there are the ones listed on eBay and the ones you got the last time they were listed on eBay. I also stated I didn't know if there were any Merchants Bakery cards that got past you. Just a clarification.

The link you posted is for a Merchants Bakery. Just trying to keep the two topics clear and separated.

Right you are on that point. I still stand by my thoughts on the Herpolsheimers being legitimate for all of the reasons stated. I find it a bit curious that you believe someone whom you have no idea of who they are except they had some cards they ignorantly wrote on. Just because they said they were honest (or you think they are and they might be, it doesn't really matter) doesn't make them an expert on cards. The cards are real.