Some rare and expensive bakery goodies......

[rhettyeakley]

You're killin' me Brian! I consider you a hobby friend but your stance on these cards is completely baffling to me! I just don't think there is anything that will convince you that the guy was mistaken and that these are original. You have no evidence that they are fake other than the guys word which for some reason is enough for you even though ALL evidence points to him having been wrong! I like you so I don't want to beat a dead horse but I hope someday you will actually hold one of these cards and look at it objectively for what it is and you will come to the same conclusion as the rest of us...

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

You're killin' me Brian! I consider you a hobby friend but your stance on these cards is completely baffling to me! I just don't think there is anything that will convince you that the guy was mistaken and that these are original. You have no evidence that they are fake other than the guys word which for some reason is enough for you even though ALL evidence points to him having been wrong! I like you so I don't want to beat a dead horse but I hope someday you will actually hold one of these cards and look at it objectively for what it is and you will come to the same conclusion as the rest of us...

+1

[nolemmings]

Brian, you do not know him to be the point of origin, and apparently he did not even claim to be the point of origin. He simply said they are fake. He even could have bought them earlier in the day from another dealer from all we've been shown.

I believe the Herpolsheimer story was posted before, but I’ll give it another go. 1920 was the 50 year anniversary of the patriarch William Herpolsheimer’s involvement in the dry goods business, so it might have been a good idea to revive the baseball card idea from a few years prior. Unfortunately, the old man died in February, 1920. His son then died in April. It would not be unreasonable to assume that the tumult caused by these deaths, or simply the business decisions of those who took over led Herpolsheimer to scrap the whole idea such that a prototype set was never completed or was never distributed. That would explain why no others have surfaced.

I hope our researcher sleuths with access to old newspapers will look into the Grand Rapids papers of the time. These Herpolsheimers make reference to the Boys Fashion Shop being on the Second Floor of the store– a fact missing from the 1916 m101-4/5 Herps. If it turns out that is the correct floor than it is even more likely that these are real, unless the creator of the fakes also went to the trouble of great research some 15+ years ago (with fewer internet resources) to add an esoteric and largely irrelevant fact. Even without this info, though, I simply cannot believe these are fake. The paper is spot on. The photography too, and fakes of that era are usually either muddy or washed out. The gloss matches–very hard to do. And of course the backs look like they were printed by the same company as the Holsums and the Shotwells, with similar patterns, fonts and spacing. Finally and as pointed out, the grouping contained players not then known to even exist in the Holsum or E121 sets. Just way too much here to by rebutted by a simple declaration otherwise.

[chernieto]

But we can all agree the prices for those listings on Ebay are way too high whether the cards are real or not?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by chernieto

But we can all agree the prices for those listings on Ebay are way too high whether the cards are real or not?

Paul,

Just to clarify, the cards on eBay are Merchants Bakery and are real. The ones we are discussing are 1921 Herpolsheimers which are fake. It is not a popular sentiment as you can see from this post which I have made stray from its original point.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Paul,

Just to clarify, the cards on eBay are Merchants Bakery and are real. The ones we are discussing are 1921 Herpolsheimers which are fake. It is not a popular sentiment as you can see from this post which I have made stray from its original point.

Thanks Brian- my mistake-guilty as accused.
I'll take a step best and wish you good luck in this discussion & horse beating.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by chernieto

Thanks Brian- my mistake-guilty as accused.
I'll take a step best and wish you good luck in this discussion & horse beating.

Thank you, Paul. I am moving us on to dead parrots.

[Brian Van Horn]

LOL.

I apologize for the delays in response, but there is a ballgame on.

Gentleman,

All of the cards out there are from one guy. I met the guy. He said they were not real. Why? Mistaken? Nope. Who goes to a show with "original" cards and sells them for $1.00 to $3.00 and says they are not real. Then, after the fact, no further examples, save a poor attempt at a Cobb are found. The parrot is dead. The troll is still alive.

Hello, Polly!

This is turning into a classic thread

[bn2cardz]

I just can't understand how "those aren't real" can make the jump to he printed them... and knows EVERYTHING about their history.

Honesty does not equate to never wrong. Ignorance and honesty are two separate issues as this thread has proved (because both sides of this debate have honest people and at least one side is wrong).

To produce the cards to look the exact same as the other cards from the set is a lot harder than you realize and seem to think through. Have you seen the "void" on a check that is written using small dots? That is because if you try and copy this design the scanner can't reproduce that accurately when reproduced. This is, in essence, what the problem with trying to produce the fronts of these cards is. The halftone used to produce the cards can't be replicated by copying the front of another card and then reprinting it. You would have to have the original of every photo to even begin to replicate these. This is also the same reason why other fakes have been easy to spot.

The only "plausible" explanation that keeps these cards "fake" is the stamping idea someone mentioned, but even that one should be easy to figure out based of the ink used and is easy to prove.

[packs]

Isn't it too difficult to distinguish between authentic and reprinted Fro Joy cards? It is my understanding that the Fro Joy cards are no longer being graded because it is too difficult to distinguish between some reprinted and authentic examples.

[nolemmings]

The only "plausible" explanation that keeps these cards "fake" is the stamping idea someone mentioned, but even that one should be easy to figure out based of the ink used and is easy to prove.

The card backs are not stamped, they are printed,which means they were affixed to the back when the cards were on a sheet. As mentioned, the cost of setting this up would be excessive and far disproportionate to any gain achieved by creating one such sheet.

[benchod]

Brian
I really question your recall of the entire story.
You have stated multiple times that they were sold on eBay by a seller in Maryland. That's is incorrect. They were sold by an antique shop in Grand Rapids Michigan. If you have this basic fact wrong maybe you don't remember the other details clearly.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by chernieto

But we can all agree the prices for those listings on Ebay are way too high whether the cards are real or not?

People are getting mixed up here...there are 2 different issues being discussed here...the 21' herps(claimed to be fake)...and the merchants bakery(on ebay...and yes...overpriced)!

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by chernieto

But we can all agree the prices for those listings on Ebay are way too high whether the cards are real or not?

Paul,

That is one thing I think we can all agree.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

You're killin' me Brian! I consider you a hobby friend but your stance on these cards is completely baffling to me! I just don't think there is anything that will convince you that the guy was mistaken and that these are original. You have no evidence that they are fake other than the guys word which for some reason is enough for you even though ALL evidence points to him having been wrong! I like you so I don't want to beat a dead horse but I hope someday you will actually hold one of these cards and look at it objectively for what it is and you will come to the same conclusion as the rest of us...

LOL. I don't mean to kill you, Rhett , but the horse is dead. It has gone to the knackers factory. The cards are fake. It is not impossible to fake cards. Do I know first hand? No, but this hobby is strewn with fakes and that all of the cards be tracked back to this one man and he states, "They are not real." That is a hard poker hand to beat.

Now, that I have summoned an English term, and I am in an impish state of mind, imagine not a dead beaten horse (sorry SPCA for the brutal mental image), but imagine a dead parrot. I did not buy the parrot, but imagine me coming in with that same impish grin and making my argument. Now for a selection from my sense of humor reference library:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE