An evidence based discussion about the players who've been overlooked for Cooperstown

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

In theory Pitchers only play defense and bring little to the table hitting wise or dont hit at all anymore....,

but WaJo was a better hitter than Belanger.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

but WaJo was a better hitter than Belanger.

so was...Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Wes Ferrell, Catfish Hunter, Don Newcome, Bob Lemon, Warren Spahn...but definitely not Bob Buhl.

[Mark70Z]

Belanger was the best defensive shortstop I've ever seen, and could have been the greatest to ever play the position. Shouldn't the best of the best be at least considered for the HOF? I know he was a mainstay with the Orioles during the glory years; didn't matter to much what his hitting was he'd be playing short.

[1952boyntoncollector]

doesnt help belanger when ripken jr played as long as him a few years later and considered a better player...

[KCRfan1]

I think any of us who follow baseball could name 25 shortstops we would rather have on our team than Belanger, and as a bonus we can exclude HoFr's. Begin at 1970. I'm going to bed now.....

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

doesnt help belanger when ripken jr played as long as him a few years later and considered a better player...

That doesn't say anything negative about Belanger. All it says is that Ripken was a hell of a shortstop, and may have been a better defensive shortstop than I have given him credit for. Belanger also worked with Ripken to help him improve his defense, so maybe some of the credit would go to him, too,

I've always felt he was good. But I don't know if I've consider him one of the greats defensively. I've felt that Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel, Alan Trammell and Barry Larkin were the best defensive shortstops from when I started watching baseball. Gary Templeton was pretty good, too, as was Ozzie Guillen.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Belanger was the best defensive shortstop I've ever seen, and could have been the greatest to ever play the position. Shouldn't the best of the best be at least considered for the HOF? I know he was a mainstay with the Orioles during the glory years; didn't matter to much what his hitting was he'd be playing short.

Thank you for your post, Mark. See, I appreciate hearing from somebody that actually saw him play.

When I came up with the idea for this thread, it was not my intention to state that any player we would be discussing definitely belonged in the Hall of Fame. It was meant to be a discussion of players that we felt had been overlooked by the BBWAA, and deserved a second look by the Baseball Veterans Committee. Unfortunately, I got a little carried away when I wrote my first post about Belanger. I'd just read a write up about his defensive skills, and the people that were writing about him probably propped him up when it came to writing about Belanger's abilities.

It's difficult to know just how he matches up against the others that might be considered the best defensive shortstops to ever play the game, because as great as he may have been, defensive statistics have always lagged behind those for offense.

I think it's likely that Belanger is one of the ten best defensive shortstops to play the game. I never saw Belanger, Luis Aparicio, Phil Rizzuto, Bill Dahlen, or Rabbit Maranville play. I have seen Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel, Alan Trammell, etc.

How do we reconcile these from such different eras?

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Thank you for your post, Mark. See, I appreciate hearing from somebody that actually saw him play.

When I came up with the idea for this thread, it was not my intention to state that any player we would be discussing definitely belonged in the Hall of Fame. It was meant to be a discussion of players that we felt had been overlooked by the BBWAA, and deserved a second look by the Baseball Veterans Committee. Unfortunately, I got a little carried away when I wrote my first post about Belanger. I'd just read a write up about his defensive skills, and the people that were writing about him probably propped him up when it came to writing about Belanger's abilities.

It's difficult to know just how he matches up against the others that might be considered the best defensive shortstops to ever play the game, because as great as he may have been, defensive statistics have always lagged behind those for offense.

I think it's likely that Belanger is one of the ten best defensive shortstops to play the game. I never saw Belanger, Luis Aparicio, Phil Rizzuto, Bill Dahlen, or Rabbit Maranville play. I have seen Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel, Alan Trammell, etc.

How do we reconcile these from such different eras?

Well, you know, we'll "never" have an agreement or really reconcile players from different eras; it is fun to discuss though.

Now, while I was growing up I loved the defensive perspective of the game. It may be due to Brooksie being my hero growing up. Anyway, I saw Belanger and Ripken play and, in my view, Belanger was better defensively and of course Ripken was far better offensively. I've seen the modern shortstops play, like I said, I focused on that part of the game and defensively give me "The Blade" before any of those Ozzie, Omar, Trammell, etc. (even though they were exceptional shortstops).