Winston and JSA

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

So to extend that line of thinking, if a college student gets a full academic scholarship they shouldn't be allowed a part time job because they're getting the college for free? Or a student with a full scholarship based on need can't have a job to pay for books meals etc?

The big schools make money from the football program, so the upper divisions really are minor leagues of sorts.

Or more inline with our collecting interests - West Point used to make a set of cards of the football team every year. Usually small, like 9 cards, maybe a few more. Any proceeds went to charity. They had to stop when the NCAA ruled that they couldn't use the players images without paying them, and that the players couldn't be paid. So for a rule that really only has meaning for a handful of players in big programs everyone lost - 9 guys who would never even have a shot at being drafted couldn't have a card, the fans couldn't get them, and the charity was shut out. (Maybe not the charity, I think the donation is still done, but the added publicity was lost)
An odd situation since everyone there is essentially on scholarship, and sort of technically employed, with a mostly guaranteed job after graduation.

Btw - those are pretty tough sets. I don't recall exactly, but they were stadium only, and perhaps one per ticket.

Steve B

[packs]

You are misreading what I'm saying. These athletes want to get paid to play football. But they are already being paid to play football: they receive a full ride scholarship so they can attend the college and play football.

Bottom line for me: don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You are receiving a free education at a top flight school which your athleticism has allowed you to experience. So you either accept that you've been given a free education or you can demand to be paid and have your scholarship be taken away.

And then when your NFL career doesn't pan out, like it won't for the majority of these guys, you can look forward to crushing student debt like everyone else. At that point you'd probably wish you could go back in time and accept your free ride for what it was.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

You are misreading what I'm saying. These athletes want to get paid to play football. But they are already being paid to play football: they receive a full ride scholarship so they can attend the college and play football.

If a student on academic scholarship started to demand to be paid for studying, then yes, take that ungrateful student's scholarship away and let some benefactor step in to pay him to study.

Bottom line for me: don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You are receiving a free education at a top flight school which your athleticism has allowed you to experience. So you either accept that you've been given a free education or you can demand to be paid and have your scholarship be taken away.

And then when your NFL career doesn't pan out, like it won't for the majority of these guys, you can look forward to crushing student debt like everyone else. At that point you'd probably wish you could go back in time and accept your free ride for what it was.

Those are good points, but I think the majority of college athletes realize that they aren't going pro. We are confusing Winston and Manziel with guys that are barely getting by, and we are confusing schools like USC and Alabama with the smaller ones where virtually no one is first round draft choice material.

Not sure what the affect of paying them would have - it might suck all remaining talent out of the small schools, rendering their football programs useless. On the other hand, paying them AND allowing them to sign autographs or do anything else they want for money, might provide a new source of revenue for smaller schools - they might be able to draw some decent players who could be a well-paid 'face' for the football team, at least locally.

[packs]

True. I just can't help but think the education aspect is forgotten. A free education is more valuable over a lifetime than whatever payment you're going to get for playing 4 years of college football. Just because more players don't take their education seriously doesn't mean that they aren't receiving something in return for playing football. If things were to shift towards compensation I'd like to at least see some strict academic guidelines fulfilled in order for you to qualify. You are at a college after all.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

True. I just can't help but think the education aspect is forgotten. A free education is more valuable over a lifetime than whatever payment you're going to get for playing 4 years of college football. Just because more players don't take their education seriously doesn't mean that they aren't receiving something in return for playing football. If things were to shift towards compensation I'd like to at least see some strict academic guidelines fulfilled in order for you to qualify. You are at a college after all.

Yes, but there are plenty of non-athletes who are in college who do not appreciate the education they have the opportunity to get. You can't make people appreciate it, and there are plenty of football players who DO appreciate it - there are probably as many 'good' stories as 'bad'.

The "strict academic guidelines" is never going to happen. I taught football players at Texas A&M who were dumber than a stick - nice guys, but they really weren't intelligent enough to be in college. The best they could hope for was to get four years of 'growing up' in a structured environment, which is a great thing, along with a few bits of education that they would have missed if they had been somewhere else. You learn from being in school, even if you try not to. Same for life - old people with more years 'put in' in life have learned things just from existing longer than young people. Most young people don't respect or understand that.

[earlywynnfan]

I can totally see both sides of the "pay college athletes" arguments. What I cannot get out of my head is that college FB player last year who was on the cover of the Madden video game, yet couldn't afford to buy the game. There is NO WAY you can convince me that something isn't wrong there.

Ken

[chaddurbin]

i was under the impression big time college programs i.e. SEC schools already pay their football players <wink><wink>.

to the original point i see nothing wrong with what JSA is doing. people want them to turn down business? they exist to give opinions on autographs, nothing more. if anything it's on the stupid autograph dealer who needed to submit 1000 winston autos at the same time. they probably have proof shots of winston signing also, no way jsa would cert that many w/o any proof.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

So to extend that line of thinking, if a college student gets a full academic scholarship they shouldn't be allowed a part time job because they're getting the college for free? Or a student with a full scholarship based on need can't have a job to pay for books meals etc?

The big schools make money from the football program, so the upper divisions really are minor leagues of sorts.

Steve, when I was in the MBA program, making a pittance as a TA, I tried to supplement that income by refereeing basketball. When the school realized I had two jobs, they told me I could no longer be a ref. That was in 1981. So what you are describing is already in place, or was. The rules are strictly enforced for any student who is NOT part of the minor league football program

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, when I was in the MBA program, making a pittance as a TA, I tried to supplement that income by refereeing basketball. When the school realized I had two jobs, they told me I could no longer be a ref. That was in 1981. So what you are describing is already in place, or was. The rules are strictly enforced for any student who is NOT part of the minor league football program

I was not aware of that.

I don't think it's right, as long as the job performance didn't suffer. But if the rule is known and applied evenly that seems fair. I'm guessing it wasn't explained to you at all since you seem like a guy who'd follow the rules. (Of course, we were all different people in college than we are now )

I've been mulling over the whole autos/dealer/JSA thing, and I really haven't quite decided what I think.

I do think Winston should have known better. But how many college football players with real talent listen to those boring rules things. Especially if they have been allowed too much leeway in HS.

The dealer really should have known better. If he's got a connection, and basically messes up the kids career to make a few bucks right now he's both wrong and not at all bright. What would that connection be worth if the player became a star at the pro level? Of course that's tempered by Winston doing a fine job of screwing up all on his own.
And if it's not a connection, then the person that hasn't been mentioned yet is whoever handles Winstons business matters or advises him.

Very Mixed feelings about JSA. On the one hand as others have said they were doing what they do. Assuming they didn't seek out someone to get a bunch of autos from someone who isn't supposed to sign for pay I'm not sure about where I think their responsibility ends. Ultimately, I think at least a call to the submitter to let him know he's putting himself and the player in a bad position would be appropriate.
On the other hand, the autographed stuff is sort of like unlicensed cards. And I'm pretty sure none of the legit TPGs will grade those. I wonder if I had one signed - would they reject it because the object that's signed is unlicensed?

I don't know enough about it to know if the act of signing itself is illegal. I don't think the NCAA rules are quite the same as laws. But if it was done somewhere that has a law against getting a college player to risk elegibility that might be enough to make it illegal. ----Interesting, illegal to host a legal activity.........I'm assuming that if for instance Winston himself signed 900 photos and put them away until after his college career that would be ok. Or if he did the signing and the photos weren't to be sold until after his elegibility? Pretty narrow window between that and the draft, but it might make sense.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

I was not aware of that.

I don't think it's right, as long as the job performance didn't suffer. But if the rule is known and applied evenly that seems fair. I'm guessing it wasn't explained to you at all since you seem like a guy who'd follow the rules. (Of course, we were all different people in college than we are now )

I have always, for the most part, been a 'rules follower'. I think it's what holds society together. If you want to be part of a society, you follow the rules that are 'reasonable' or you do something to change them. In that instance the technical rule was 'no university job' if you have an assistantship. So I became a bartender.

Originally Posted by steve B

Ultimately, I think at least a call to the submitter to let him know he's putting himself and the player in a bad position would be appropriate.

At the very least, in my opinion. It's just ethical.

Originally Posted by steve B

I don't know enough about it to know if the act of signing itself is illegal. I don't think the NCAA rules are quite the same as laws. But if it was done somewhere that has a law against getting a college player to risk elegibility that might be enough to make it illegal. ----Interesting, illegal to host a legal activity.........I'm assuming that if for instance Winston himself signed 900 photos and put them away until after his college career that would be ok. Or if he did the signing and the photos weren't to be sold until after his elegibility? Pretty narrow window between that and the draft, but it might make sense.

Steve B

It's actually very clear - he can't sign for profit, or for others to profit. Certainly, signing 900 items would be suspicious. And as soon as the dealer sells one, Winston becomes guilty.

Not sure about squirreling them away for after eligibility ends. Very interesting loophole, as there could be a deal between Winston, the dealer and JSA stating that nothing gets sold until that point.