Winston and JSA

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Major college sports has by far the largest disparity in what they're (star athletes) worth and what they get. The old, truly amature Olympics may have come close, but can't think of anything in today's sports world worse than major college football and college hoops.

The Amateur version of the Olympics that I grew up with, was great for fans, but not for the athletes. There was a lot going on in the background that the fans were unaware of - the best U.S. athletes were dirt poor and if they said anything about it, they were banned from participating in competitions. It was a horrible situation for them. It eventually crumbled and the fans cried foul, but it had to happen. I do miss real boxing, real wrestling and real basketball, the way Naismith intended it be played, but all of that is gone. The ironic thing is how crooked things were in the old amateur Olympics. What memories!

Perhaps we are witnessing the same transition with NCAA football?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Amateur version of the Olympics that I grew up with, was great for fans, but not for the athletes. There was a lot going on in the background that the fans were unaware of - the best U.S. athletes were dirt poor and if they said anything about it, they were banned from participating in competitions. It was a horrible situation for them. It eventually crumbled and the fans cried foul, but it had to happen. I do miss real boxing, real wrestling and real basketball, the way Naismith intended it be played, but all of that is gone. The ironic thing is how crooked things were in the old amateur Olympics. What memories!

Perhaps we are witnessing the same transition with NCAA football?

Ahhh, I've got a terrible misspelling frozen in time!

Otherwise, I do think we're seeing a transition in NCAA and think change will be in large part driven by public pressure. Things like the O'Bannon case and the Northwestern team are bringing unprecedented attention.. and no matter how you feel about the Northwestern players' arguments, it's undeniable how much leverage these guys carry. Can you imagine how much bargaining power a team choosing NOT to take the field or court just before a national championship game?? How about if they're doing so for a paralyzed teammate who does not have lifetime medical benefits? I think a network (or conference) would pay them $10M on the spot if it could be done secretly. Not saying I hope this happens, but something's gotta change and however it's done, it needs to be done.

Some ideas to throw up on the wall-- players have rights to their names for martketing, advertising/% of jersey sales/autograph sales and this money can be held in a trust... they get 100% if they graduate, and lesser % for each year they leave early... for players kicked out due to poor conduct, maybe money can be donated to scholarship funds of local educational programs?? Perhaps a cap can be set for 1A schools, and money shared amongst players, in a slotted fashion based on playing time... and the truly mega star players would get their extra via endorsements, signings, etc.

I wrote a paper in college on this topic, and remember some of the numbers cited at that time (mid-nineties using late eighties sources). There were references about major bowl games bringing $500K-$600K for teams, etc... which is laughable by today's standards. Not every school is making huge money on their own, but the major conferences are cleaning up... between deals with ESPN/CBS/ABC, the conference cable networks, ticket/merchendise/consession sales, BCS bowl earnings... there is a lot of loot to split up. The fact conference cronies, school ADs, bowl administrators are absolutely cleaning up makes me semi sick when seeing how little most of these players have, and will have long term.

Also- I see NO REASON why a football player need be forced to go to school to pursue his dream. Even 1 and done in basketball seems silly. I think baseball has it best, eligable in HS and committed for 3 years if you enroll in a 4 year school.

[chaddurbin]

again, going back to the original issue with JSA...they didn't have to do anything other than judge whether the sigs r authentic or not.

if the local university head basketball coach come to our restaurant with a couple of his student players and pay for their meals...i'm cool with it. i'm glad they chose our establishment, i don't consider that unethical and i'm not going to dial up the compliance dept of the NCAA to report the infraction. i'm fine with my moral compass, i sleep very well at night.

[swarmee]

One, the high school player has no effective value. He is just a college recruit. It isn't until he gets to college and proves himself that he becomes an NFL prospect, where there is a shot to get paid.
The NCAA does not just cover CFB and MBB; it covers over 40 amateur sports. The money the schools take in on football cover the expenses (mostly) of the other 15-39 sports that a college plays. Remove the income stream from football, and 10 sports at some schools would be immediately shuttered, leading many with scholarships to have no team to play for. You saw this 10 years ago when colleges were *finally* becoming compliant with the Title IX regs that were published in the 1970s.
As well, allowing any college player to sign autographs for money now becomes a Boone Pickens/Nike/Under Armour situation. Oklahoma State, Oregon, and Maryland have the most powerful boosters with deep pockets, and promising a high school player that he'll be able to sign $100K autographs while in college at any of these schools makes it impossible to even attempt a leveled playing field for recruiting.

I think the NCAA will fail/be replaced for many of these reasons, but IMO the goals of the student-athlete and amateur athletics is sound. If the NFL had the balls to start up their own minor leagues and pay HS players $20-30K to play in front of empty stadiums, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be a place for non-college students to play in the US without having to pretend to be a student, but then, they wouldn't be "getting what they deserve" either. There's no demand for a minor league NFL, but that's the only real way to fix college football. I just think that you take these kids out of the college they're playing for, and their football playing ability below the NFL has very little value. We know that's true for minor league baseball players, where many have to live on $20K for a season.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by swarmee

One, the high school player has no effective value. He is just a college recruit. It isn't until he gets to college and proves himself that he becomes an NFL prospect, where there is a shot to get paid.
The NCAA does not just cover CFB and MBB; it covers over 40 amateur sports. The money the schools take in on football cover the expenses (mostly) of the other 15-39 sports that a college plays. Remove the income stream from football, and 10 sports at some schools would be immediately shuttered, leading many with scholarships to have no team to play for. You saw this 10 years ago when colleges were *finally* becoming compliant with the Title IX regs that were published in the 1970s.
As well, allowing any college player to sign autographs for money now becomes a Boone Pickens/Nike/Under Armour situation. Oklahoma State, Oregon, and Maryland have the most powerful boosters with deep pockets, and promising a high school player that he'll be able to sign $100K autographs while in college at any of these schools makes it impossible to even attempt a leveled playing field for recruiting.

I think the NCAA will fail/be replaced for many of these reasons, but IMO the goals of the student-athlete and amateur athletics is sound. If the NFL had the balls to start up their own minor leagues and pay HS players $20-30K to play in front of empty stadiums, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be a place for non-college students to play in the US without having to pretend to be a student, but then, they wouldn't be "getting what they deserve" either. There's no demand for a minor league NFL, but that's the only real way to fix college football. I just think that you take these kids out of the college they're playing for, and their football playing ability below the NFL has very little value. We know that's true for minor league baseball players, where many have to live on $20K for a season.

Those are really valid counter points. Sadly seems most any system, including current allows for the Nikes, Boone Pickens of the sports world to game the system. I think maybe the best they can do is cap any sort of compensation, and again hold in trust to be paid/slotted based on years at school/time played/etc.. Maybe allow revenues from good performing conferences to be allocated amongst teams and bump cap up, giving a perceived "reward" for success. Maybe you also offer rewards/incentives for highest academically performing teams. Seems you'd want to do everything you could to aid those programs. These guys (agents, some coaches, boosters) and most schools do it and get away with. Some schools are involved, and some just turn a blind eye to powerful boosters.

I heard from a friend, who's dad was a successful head coach in the ACC, about one of the ways Cam Newton's dad Cecil was paid. Apparently Auburn had a booster that owned or had ties to a river boat casino. Cecil was instructed to go into the casino and play X game at X time (slots, whatever) and everything was rigged for him to win and walk out the door with thousands, tens of thousands. If busted, unless they're dumb and left an email or phone trail, seems the university will always have a plausible deniability for this sort of behavior.

I love Stanford's success, but even if the coach and program are clean, Stanford has about as powerful an alumni group as there is. Who's to say big time alumns don't take the Capitol Hill route and just make hand shake promises and lucrative "ins" via internships or jobs after school. Lots of motivated, top student athletes might be lured by that kind of stuff and again, school doesn't necessarily even know.

[Runscott]

Ian, I know you have thoroughly researched the alternatives you describe, but to someone who is a layman in that area, it seems like there would be all sorts of lawsuits by college athletes desperate for their fair share, especially when the point came when they experienced injuries, 'failure to live up to potential' or 'Winston/Manziel syndrome'. Lots of hail mary lawsuits due to all the subjective assigning of value.

...congrats regarding your Giants.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

...congrats regarding your Giants.

Thanks!!!!

On the other topic, I'm sure you're right. It's really a bummer when nothing can ever seem to get done here for sake of the "law", red tape, etc. My old roommate went back to school a few years ago for urban planning at MIT. He didn't for one second consider working in the US because NOTHING GETS DONE! I get it, some of this red tape and lawyering is necessary, but when it stalls things completely it's beyond counter productive. I think they built the original Bay Bridge in about 3 years start to finish. The 2nd (half of it) took about 12 of 13... and the delays for things as stupid as whether or not to have a big/signature tower and suspension span end up doubling, quadrupaling the budgeted costs due to change orders and rising steel prices. Seems simple enough--- do you due dilligence and then just DO. I wish the same applied for NCAA reforms.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

again, going back to the original issue with JSA...they didn't have to do anything other than judge whether the sigs r authentic or not.

if the local university head basketball coach come to our restaurant with a couple of his student players and pay for their meals...i'm cool with it. i'm glad they chose our establishment, i don't consider that unethical and i'm not going to dial up the compliance dept of the NCAA to report the infraction. i'm fine with my moral compass, i sleep very well at night.

Quan, morality and ethics are two different things. I'm glad you are moral.