Dating of The Reccius Cigar Card of Honus Wagner

Peter_Spaeth · #1 11-13-2014, 01:17 PM

As there are references to both 2606 and 2608 Elliott, perhaps at a point he had acquired adjacent properties and used one for business.

Kris19 · #2 08-10-2019, 04:40 PM

I realize this is pulling up a thread from nearly 5 years ago, but nearly everyone who posted is still active, so I thought you might be interested in a little addendum. Sorry, it doesn't solve the big question of the issue date of the Reccius Wagner.

Henry�s brother, John, pitched in the American Association for the Louisville Colonels. Immediately following his playing days, he opened a sporting goods store specializing "Base Ball Supplies" in Louisville. His store also sold, among other things, cigars.

I recently won the business/advertising card shown below in an auction. Based on information found in the Louisville City Directory and the Louisville Courier-Journal, J W Reccius operated his base ball supplies store at 1703 Market St (the address on the card) in 1883 and 1884, then moved to a new location at 342 Third St. in 1885.

Rhotchkiss · #3 08-10-2019, 05:12 PM

Great read. Thanks for reviving

doug.goodman · #4 11-01-2024, 02:50 AM

Bump

Peter_Spaeth · #5 11-01-2024, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Bump

Two threads on the same subject was not enough, now we have three!!! LOL.

tjisonline · #6 11-01-2024, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Two threads on the same subject was not enough, now we have three!!! LOL.

Mods / Leon can merge all 3 topics into one if desired. I�m a forum mod on another website & the software allows it.

Rhotchkiss · #7 11-02-2024, 08:52 AM

Of the 3 current threads on the main board, I used this thread because it discusses the date of the Reccius Wagner.

There are two key bits of information on the card:
The Address: 2608 Elliott Avenue
The Phone Number: 6807

Rob's initial post in this thread argues that the card could not be issued before 1903 because Louisville Directories do not show Henry Reccius being at 2608 Elliot Avenue until 1904. Rob's argument, which is based on the address is compelling.

However, to me, the phone number is just as important. The question is whether Louisville had 4-digit phone numbers before 1900 and/or when did 4-digit phone numbers starting with "6" begin in Lousiville?

I own a Louisville Directory from 1899 that I acquired on ebay. I looked through the entire thing. There are 4-digit phone numbers, but none that start with a number other than "1" and "2". Thus, based on this information, and coupled with the fact that Henry Reccius is at 2216 Eddy in the pre-1900 directories, I believe that the Reccius Wagner cannot be pre-1900. So when was it issued?

I called that Louisville archives and I spoke to a man for about an hour. He flipped through Louisville directories from 1900-1904 looking for a 4-digit phone number starting with a "6" or higher. He did not find any. In fact, if I recall accurately, "4" was the highest 4-digit number located. This fact, taken with the address information Rob provides (which I confirmed with the archives), makes me believe that the card could not have been issued before 1904.

But here is what bothers me: Why would Reccius issue a cigar of Wagner, in Louisville garb, years after Wagner left Louisville? Aside from the few years spent on the Louisville team in 1897-99, he had no ties to the city. Yes, Louisville players were sold to Pittsburgh in 1899, so maybe all the Louisville fans became Pittsburgh fans, but do you use a Pittsburgh player, in Louisville, years after the transaction to sell your wares? Plus, I doubt Louisville people really cared much for Pittsburgh or their players - did Browns fans become Ravens fans or Baltimore Colts fans become Indianapolis Colts fans? It seems odd to me that Reccius would use Wagner non-contemporaneously with his playing days in Lousville.

There are many other reasons, including the dating of the use of trade cards, the card stock, the poem on the back, the cost of the cigars, and of course PSA says its from 1897-99 (but we know PSA doesnt know squat), etc. that indicate the card could be issued before 1900.

Ultimately, I have serious doubts that the card is from before 1900, and I a believe it was issued no earlier than 1904 (and likely later). It is because of this doubt that I did not strongly pursue the card -- its an awfully expensive item to take a risk on. My last bid was somewhere around $300k.

Regarding the Goldin description -- I think they did a very good job walking the line between promoting their consignor's item and disclosing the issues and arguments. The bottom line is that PSA says its from 1897-1899. They could have said that and nothing more. But how many people really know the history of Wagner and the card. Plus a card of this magnitude needs a description.

My gut is that many felt like I did and held back because of the dating uncertainty. If the date could be proven inconclusively, someone would have done it by now. And if it could be proven that the card is from before 1900, and thus his actual rookie, I suspect it would be worth $3mm+++. The fact that it didnt go over $1mm, let alone hit its reserve, indicates that the market has its concerns and priced the item accordingly.

doug.goodman · #8 11-02-2024, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Two threads on the same subject was not enough, now we have three!!! LOL.

Yes, this one has considerably better details which, previous to my bump, were for the most part lost to the sands of time to many readers of the other two threads.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 11-02-2024, 09:43 AM

PSA explanation from 2006.

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-block-lelands

The card is made of medium stock with a reddish-orange color and measures 3-3/8 x 4-3/4". Notwithstanding the grade of PSA 1, this card still presents very well and has excellent eye appeal. It has some age wear, creasing, a 3/4" tear at the bottom right border, and wear to the corners which is consistent with the cards age. More importantly, the front of the card features a portrait of a young Honus (Hans) Wagner in a Louisville Colonels uniform pitching for "Henry Reccius, Manufacturer of Hans Wagner--10� Cigar" and "Koda Bowler Our Favorite Farmers' and Gardners' Favorite 5� Cigars."

On the reverse, there is a lengthy paragraph extolling the virtues of "Union Made" products and the workers who make them. The method in which this card was first distributed is unknown, but there is speculation from its size that it was either inserted in boxes of cigars or just handed to customers at the point of sale.

A "Honus Wagner" cigar box featuring this same image of Wagner was recently auctioned elsewhere and was shown to be from 1919, but the National Cigar Museum has confirmed that these were a completely different brand that was separate and distinct from the "Hans Wagner" cigars sold much earlier by Henry Reccius. In fact, the federally assigned factory number for Henry Reccius was Fact. 45, 5th Dist. KY. By 1893, they were already assigning factory numbers in the 600's in the 5th tax district in Kentucky, so Reccius was indeed assigned a very early number.

There is indisputable proof that Henry Reccius was making cigars as far back as 1870 when he was only 18 years old! The 1870 United States census of Louisville, Kentucky, lists "Henry Rewcius" as a cigar maker, and he was still living at home at that time with his two more famous brothers, John and Phil, who both went on to play professional baseball for the Colonels in the 1880's. In addition, the 1890 city directory for Louisville lists Henry Reccius as living on Elliott Street, and Louisville had 4-digit phone numbers prior to 1900. Accordingly, PSA had no problem authenticating this card as indeed having been distributed during the 1897-99 time period.

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