I'n new memeber, Babe Ruth help

[Pickles]

I had done the homework, but mostly in a vacuum. Read a lot of articles, studied the signatures, compared, etc. I had reached a point of diminishing returns since all conclusions I could have reached, I had already reached (It was likely to be authentic) The PSA and JSA agreements, which, in hindsight may have been Gutierrez at HA ding the setup and the other 2 TPAs doing the rubber stamping was a bonus. When you look at it, HA added a lot of value in 2 certs + a Gutierrez evaluation and a lot fo good pictures.

What I found lacking in my research, and look for here is the interaction with other knowledgeable people, preferably with no skin in the game, in the hopes that they offer a different perspective, POV, or approach to doing this. Hopefully we can go from the "Yes" or "No" not authentic (I think the preponderance says "Yes") to why one thinks it is.

It is easy to get discouraged (Hauls of Shame) about some of the stuff that goes on in the hobby, and, without interaction, it is even easier to be cynical about motives by TPAs, auction houses, etc, who do have a lot of skin in the game. I'd like to think that carrying out this discussions allow the INDIVIDUALS a voice whcih, when compiled can be a greater voice. Thanks for taking te time to put thoughts. I may not agree with them all, but they are respected

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Pickles

It is easy to get discouraged (Hauls of Shame) about some of the stuff that goes on in the hobby, and, without interaction, it is even easier to be cynical about motives by TPAs, auction houses, etc, who do have a lot of skin in the game. I'd like to think that carrying out this discussions allow the INDIVIDUALS a voice whcih, when compiled can be a greater voice. Thanks for taking te time to put thoughts. I may not agree with them all, but they are respected

Good points. The HOS articles about Ruth forgeries are very good, and well worth your time to read - Nash steals a lot of stuff from our forum, and also from discussions he has 1st or 2nd-hand with experts in the hobby, some of whom he credits, and others he doesn't, but he knows who is worth stealing from.

I don't know one way or the other if the two main TPA's are experts. The fact that they authenticate obvious forgeries makes me wonder; however, it could be that they are motivated by other things that end up masking their expertise. Regarding AH's that sell obvious forgeries, it is important to understand that they really can't auction expensive autographs that do not come with COA's - Lelands tried it for a while, and I bought most of my autographs from them back then, but most collectors require the security of a COA. Having said that, once an auction house chooses a TPA to be their authenticator, they have to go with the TPA's opinion. I have contacted a few of the large AH's when I was positive they were auctioning a forgery that had a PSA or JSA COA, but they felt that their hands were tied - they either accept everything the TPA tells them, or they fire them. Is their some collusion going on that fills the pockets of both? Probably. But it really comes down to collectors accepting the TPA's and paying for their pieces of paper.

Finally, compiled individual voices in this autograph sub-forum do not create a "greater voice" - it creates a compilation of voices of various knowledge levels, some that sound very confident and convincing, but shouldn't be.

[RichardSimon]

Scott,
It seems that based on their catalogs Lelands still does not use TPA's except for an occasional item which probably was submitted with the COA.
I know Mike and Josh and IMO they are better at authenticating then the TPA's.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Scott,
It seems that based on their catalogs Lelands still does not use TPA's except for an occasional item which probably was submitted with the COA.
I know Mike and Josh and IMO they are better at authenticating then the TPA's.

Thanks for that correction, Richard. Someone told me a few auctions back that Lelands now used TPA's and the few I had read the detailed descriptions of had them. I agree - I have always enjoyed Lelands because Josh has a great selection, does whatever he wants, and has the expertise to do so. Speaking of, I just got my first hardcopy Lelands catalog in quite some time. Looking forward to perusing it over a bottle of Anchor Christmas...now.

[Pickles]

OK I am trying to create a signature and picture in order to minimize skepticism. bear with me as I work through the settings

I a also somewhat dyslexic when I type, and will reverse characters, and, coupled with a wireless kbd which is not always as quick as my fingers, you will find the occasional typo. Do not assume lack of education from the typos.

Back to the thread:

"Finally, compiled individual voices in this autograph sub-forum do not create a "greater voice" - it creates a compilation of voices of various knowledge levels, some that sound very confident and convincing, but shouldn't be."

Populist opinion is always valid, though not always right. Notice my "push" to get more technical facts on the auto as a way of having a more informed discussion. I am no competing with TPA's, nor want their business, but I do recognize that the public places a lot fo faith in them. I am not there on trusting them with 100's or 1000's of dollar investments, to be sure, but, they have become a necessary evil (savior?) of the hobby. Having said that, threat this thread as an alternate way of doing TPA, Take the Ted Williams auto in a thread Dec 25/26 2014. Not the most challenging forgery, but it saved someone (hopefully) $50 or so for a RT ticket to a TPA to get a rejection. I see value in this

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Pickles

Populist opinion is always valid, though not always right. Notice my "push" to get more technical facts on the auto as a way of having a more informed discussion. I am no competing with TPA's, nor want their business, but I do recognize that the public places a lot fo faith in them. I am not there on trusting them with 100's or 1000's of dollar investments, to be sure, but, they have become a necessary evil (savior?) of the hobby. Having said that, threat this thread as an alternate way of doing TPA, Take the Ted Williams auto in a thread Dec 25/26 2014. Not the most challenging forgery, but it saved someone (hopefully) $50 or so for a RT ticket to a TPA to get a rejection. I see value in this

I think the above is spot-on. The technical facts are something that just takes time, as sharing them publicly is a double-edged sword. Plus, it's of value to figure some of it out on your own, both to yourself and to the hobby - by having a completely fresh outlook you could very well spot a new 'tell' that the experts never noticed.

[Pickles]

Regarding the double edged sword:

I suspect the "fear factor" is to "tip" a forgerer on how to make better forgeries. The other side is that one helps a lot of collectors in helping identify what is real. If someone goes into the forgery, they will likely do it with some help (it takes $ and some degree of sponsorship) and I suspect that if someone practices the forgeries to become an expert, he/she will study and develop their own techniques. On the other hand, the larger number of people which become educated and now have a better appreciation for what to look for in an authentic signature, I believe outweighs the negatives. no doubt there are pros and cons, but I am of the opinion that the pros outweigh the cons. Cardboard connection has some top level examples of what to look for on a Babe Ruth signature, bt this amounts to the tip of the tip of an iceberg, and, is perhaps the economic equivalent of "buy low- sell high" advice. Nonetheless, it is a start. I do hope that readers come to a similar conclusion and choose to share tips (not all of which are bound to be correct)

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Pickles

Regarding the double edged sword:

I suspect the "fear factor" is to "tip" a forgerer on how to make better forgeries. The other side is that one helps a lot of collectors in helping identify what is real. If someone goes into the forgery, they will likely do it with some help (it takes $ and some degree of sponsorship) and I suspect that if someone practices the forgeries to become an expert, he/she will study and develop their own techniques. On the other hand, the larger number of people which become educated and now have a better appreciation for what to look for in an authentic signature, I believe outweighs the negatives. no doubt there are pros and cons, but I am of the opinion that the pros outweigh the cons. Cardboard connection has some top level examples of what to look for on a Babe Ruth signature, bt this amounts to the tip of the tip of an iceberg, and, is perhaps the economic equivalent of "buy low- sell high" advice. Nonetheless, it is a start. I do hope that readers come to a similar conclusion and choose to share tips (not all of which are bound to be correct)

This is not a new topic - it's not just about tipping off forgers. I have shared tips and had people who don't know their *sses from a hole in the ground tell me I'm incorrect. Experts with decades of experience have gone through the same thing here and have since backed off. Who can blame them?