Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

[Jewish-collector]

Now I understand. Thanks.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Leon

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

[nolemmings]

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

Well if you guys don't mind being ripped off by shill bidders could you just send the extra money to me? I guess if you have something and don't know it, and I steal it, it's ok? Sounds good to me.

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Leon

Well if you guys don't mind being ripped off by shill bidders could you just send the extra money to me? I guess if you have something and don't know it, and I steal it, it's ok? Sounds good to me.

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

That really wasn't my point. I was giving you a counter to your example, which I think is fairly logical, no?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

That really wasn't my point. I was giving you a counter to your example, which I think is fairly logical, no?

Oh yeah, it's logical and I understand the comments about the fraud being a reserve. I get it.

ps...I should add almost all of my comments aren't pertaining to Probstein, they are how I feel about shill bidding.

If the sales venue has that shill bidding IS allowed in their sales, then I guess I have no issue with it. But that isn't the way most sales venues in our hobby operate.

and from my good friend wiki- so we are on the same page-

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Leon

Oh yeah, it's logical and I understand the comments about the fraud being a reserve. I get it.

ps...I should add almost all of my comments aren't pertaining to Probstein, they are how I feel about shill bidding.

If the sales venue has that shill bidding IS allowed in their sales, then I guess I have no issue with it. But that isn't the way most sales venues in our hobby operate.

and from my good friend wiki- so we are on the same page-

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

.

I am not a fan of shill bidding either, but any card or item sold on eBay/auction site has the same chance of being shilled, as an item by Probstein. You can say any cards sales data are fraudulent. He takes the brunt, because he is a big target, but a lot of people complaining about his auctions, have probably been shilled on other seller's auctions, and they don't even know it. This brings me back to my point of being an educated bidder, which to me makes shilling an afterthought.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Leon

and from my good friend wiki- so we are on the same page-

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

.

Leon,

IMO, you cut short the crux of the matter.

"Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1] because of the potential for fraud and damage; however if a shill does not place uninformed parties at a risk of loss, but merely generates "buzz," the shill's actions may be legal. For example, a person planted in an audience to laugh and applaud when desired (see claque), or to participate in on-stage activities as a "random member of the audience," is a type of legal shill."

[D. Bergin]

Alright, I'll be the elephant in the room here. The guy has only bid on 5 items in the last month........he has zero bid retractions in the last 6 months.

Is the 100% figure (on 5 items) the only evidence you have that this guy is an actual shill?

Is there a prior history of Probstein selling these exact same cards, that somebody else might have won, prior to your winning them?

Could it actually be that he saw a card from a set he was looking for and threw in his obligatory few bids for the month?

.....another possibility, and I've heard of several OCD type collectors who do this. He may have already had the card, but saw it was going for a low price and raised the ceiling on them, figuring he was protecting the market. If he wins, no biggy, it's a card he likes anyways.......if he loses, no biggy, he thinks he kept the market from crashing on a card he likes.

Originally Posted by Leon

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

[Runscott]

Regarding ANY crooked seller…

Interesting that when these discussions take place there is always an argument that it is okay to support a crooked seller, as long as you are paying what you consider to be a fair price. Then it devolves into examples of where a lower than 'fair' price was paid for something, which by some twisted logic indicates that, because not ALL of the seller's auctions are shilled, NONE of them are shilled. If you want to support a crooked seller, just support the guy, but don't make excuses as to why it is okay, because it isn't.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Regarding ANY crooked seller…

Interesting that when these discussions take place there is always an argument that it is okay to support a crooked seller, as long as you are paying what you consider to be a fair price. Then it devolves into examples of where a lower than 'fair' price was paid for something, which by some twisted logic indicates that, because not ALL of the seller's auctions are shilled, NONE of them are shilled. If you want to support a crooked seller, just support the guy, but don't make excuses as to why it is okay, because it isn't.

Not once did I say shilling is ok. I just don't let it affect me buying baseball cards, bc I pay what I am willing to pay. People having problems with particular sellers have the freedom to either buy from someone else or don't blow money on cards.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% sellers commission they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

[phabphour20]

Always fun reading these conversations. I think the reason why so many of Rick's auctions are shilled is the same reason why Rick has so many darn auctions... his rates are the best around. If I'm selling a card over $1k, I will flat out get more money for it (after all fees) if Rick sells it for me. So a lot of people will send him stuff to sell.

Then, to degenerates in our hobby, and they are legion, the third party seller allows you the option to shill your own auctions. Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this. So because he has good rates and gets top prices (partially from consignor's shilling), he gets lots of inventory to sell and attracts degenerate sellers looking for a few extra bucks.

I am IN NO WAY defending shilling. It is despicable and a stain on this hobby. But I really don't think you can fault Rick for it. He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian Ronde@u

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this.

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

[phabphour20]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Definitely a fair point.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Rick did do something: "hi, best thing it to contact ebay trust and safety and let them determine if anything happened
thanks
rick"

And I bet he was grinning ear to ear as he typed the above.

[PM770]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

I agree with this 100%

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I suspect this may get interesting.

I need to make some popcorn

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

I do buy what I want for my collection, at the price I wish to pay. Whether that be from a shilling seller or not

Then you are part of the problem because you are showing your support for the fraud and the price you wish to pay is based on prior shilled prices. For full disclosure I recently won a card I had to have from a known shiller, but I do not feel good about it.

[packs]

Just FYI a max bid is the maximum amount you're willing to pay. A winning bid is the highest bid placed.

So if you're being shilled, you are not buying a card at a price you're willing to pay. You're buying the card at a price the seller is willing to sell it for.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian

He could make a half-hearted effort and ban a few of his biggest offenders.

[phabphour20]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

He could make a half-hearted effort and ban a few of his biggest offenders.

Now now, we all know this wouldn't be in his best interest...

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

Then you are part of the problem because you are showing your support for the fraud and the price you wish to pay is based on prior shilled prices. For full disclosure I recently won a card I had to have from a known shiller, but I do not feel good about it.

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

Indeed you are part of the problem. Perhaps slow down the purchases from sellers who are known to support support shilling?

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

Not buying cards from people known to be breaking the law does not mean "I should just stop buying cards now"

And now, I am done with this conversation. I enjoy this type of thread much more when I can just sit back and be entertained. My mistake for getting involved at all.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% BP they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, the problem of card doctoring, and increasingly, the problem of fake slabs and flips, are much more problematic than shill bidding. But the feds don't seem to see it that way, nor do most collectors.

[hangman62]

I think nobody on this site should bid on ANY Probstein lots anymore....stay away !

I will monitor his auctions and bid accordingly. Just to make sure everything is on the up and up

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by glchen

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

I don't know what VCP is. I was commenting on standard auctions as there is no buyers commission on ebay. The seller absorbs all the costs.

Aside - You can 'teach' ethics, the difference between right and wrong. You cannot teach morals, doing what is right versus what is wrong. That is why all law students must pass an ethics class, but not a morals class.

I generally only bid within the last 15 seconds of an auctions end on items I want at at the maximum price I am willing to pay. The price I am willing to pay is always lower than my perceived value of all items that I will resell. On the items I collect I may bid as a collector, but still price it in a similar way. I don't believe I have seen shilling on the auctions I bid on.