Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

What exactly is "to do something about it"? Provide a partial refund for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks a legitimate snipe bid "shilled" him? He probably already deals with dozens of returns a week due to simple buyer's remorse. Maybe he should wrap his package advertising included with every order with $20 bills as well. Does shilling occur on some of his auctions and with other larger consignment companies? Duh, welcome to reality. There are also people like me. In November I won 3-4 PSA/DNA cards from him. I make on average 2-3 eBay purchases a month with the majority being BIN's. So had you won any of the other 3-4 cards I was the under bidder on my bid % would have likely been very high and look like shilling. It wasn't. It was me bidding on multiple like items with the same seller. How often does that happen with a seller of his volume?

This is nine pages of Probstein is a crook and Probstein knows some of his auctions are shilled but absolutely no one has provided a viable solution for a larger eBay consignment house to implement.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?

Hey leave us card doctors out of it. If the shillers can steal money and nobody cares we should be able to also.

By the way anybody looking for a Blue front 58 Hank Aaron, T206 Wagner, or a nice 52 Mantle? Cash only with no returns.

[freakhappy]

So what I get out of this is that shilling is not illegal to eBay, but no doubt unethical. So all one can do is protest Probstein's auctions and eBay in general.



Let me ask everyone here this question...Since eBay seems to not care about this and most everyone here wants Probstein's head, are you also protesting eBay as well, since they are allowing it? If you are not, you are also part of the problem in my eyes.

[ullmandds]

I'd surmise Ebay's and Probsteins evolutions are quite similar. Ebay started off as a great new global marketplace...forever changing the way we transact commerce...eventually greed/profits taking presedence turning ebay into a money taking whore.

I'm sure Probstein has evolved similarly.

[Jayworld]

Lots of really good thoughts on this thread, and some others that I don't agree with at all. Seems that the overall consensus for those who agree that shilling is wrong is that sellers often cannot police themselves due to sheer selling volume, but if a seller is alerted to a shill bidder and THEN does nothing to police that bidder (i.e.ban, etc.) then the problem lies with the seller. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Also, the analogy earlier on Post #99 does not seem to jell with me; just because one person uses a BIN to purchase a card for $400 does NOT mean the value of the card is $400. The value of any card (imho) is what the trending price is of a card over many auctions/sales. We've seen how some cards sell for huge amounts (because of multiple factors, including TPG, rarity, condition, auction house, seller, number of bidders, etc.) and at other times for more reasonable amounts....

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?

I'm mainly concerned with shill bidders and their co-conspirators.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'm mainly concerned with shill bidders and their co-conspirators.

Yeah most card doctors probably have immunity by now anyhow.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah most card doctors probably have immunity by now anyhow.

Most shill bidders have statutes of limitations which have passed too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Most shill bidders have statutes of limitations which have passed too.

Maybe there's hope for cleaning up memorabilia, because I don't see it happening for cards.

[drcy]

I think collectors willing to readily buy from sellers they know act unethically and perhaps even break the law don't realize the significance of provenance as it relates to value-- especially over the long term. If it turns out the seller you procured many of your cards is shown to have knowingly sold altered cards, it will effect the resale value of your collection. Whether or not your high grade cards were, buyers will wonder if they were also altered. Many collectors simply won't be willing to touch your high graded cards or their skepticism will at least be reflected in their bidding when they found where you got them.

Many game used collectors have learned the lesson of how the value of LOAs sand items can drop after the sellers are sentenced for forgery and related law breaking, and how it can taint in the minds of buyers legitimate items obtained from the seller. And there's no reason card collectors purchasing from sellers they know act unethically and/or break the law can't learn a similar lesson.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

What exactly is "to do something about it"? Provide a partial refund for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks a legitimate snipe bid "shilled" him? He probably already deals with dozens of returns a week due to simple buyer's remorse. Maybe he should wrap his package advertising included with every order with $20 bills as well. Does shilling occur on some of his auctions and with other larger consignment companies? Duh, welcome to reality. There are also people like me. In November I won 3-4 PSA/DNA cards from him. I make on average 2-3 eBay purchases a month with the majority being BIN's. So had you won any of the other 3-4 cards I was the under bidder on my bid % would have likely been very high and look like shilling. It wasn't. It was me bidding on multiple like items with the same seller. How often does that happen with a seller of his volume?

This is nine pages of Probstein is a crook and Probstein knows some of his auctions are shilled but absolutely no one has provided a viable solution for a larger eBay consignment house to implement.

Scott already told you that you were being silly, but I want to reiterate it. By "do something about it" I mean ban consignors that are shilling their own auctions. Once again, Probstein was given names (eBay usernames and real first and last names) of consignors that were shilling their own auctions. He didn't do anything about it. He continues to do business with them. How about banning them when they're caught, is that a viable solution???

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Scott already told you that you were being silly, but I want to reiterate it. By "do something about it" I mean ban consignors that are shilling their own auctions. Once again, Probstein was given names (eBay usernames and real first and last names) of consignors that were shilling their own auctions. He didn't do anything about it. He continues to do business with them. How about banning them when they're caught, is that a viable solution???

So Pang21 is still consigning cards?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

So Pang21 is still consigning cards?

Since eBay has removed the usernames from feedback, I have no way to know that. But, what I do know is that about two years ago Probstein was made aware of Pank21 (or whatever his name is) and did nothing about it at the time because he was caught AGAIN about a year later.




Here's another similar and more recent thread though...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...id+retractions

Do you REALLY believe Probstein did anything in this situation?

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Do you REALLY believe Probstein did anything in this situation?

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

Once again, you're being silly. Probstein was made aware of the shilling (Panky) and did nothing to stop it. Isn't that the same thing as "allowing it"?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

You sure make life sound grand!!!!!!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

Steve, Probstein engages in fraud as well, not just siting idly by while it occurs.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Steve, Probstein engages in fraud as well, not just siting idly by while it occurs.

There could be a lot more to it than just consignors shilling because they know they can get away with it. Probstein is the self-proclaimed largest card seller on ebay. Based on ebay's behavior when it comes to money, I'm sure they are going to 'take care' of him in any way that ebay can get away with. What that means is uncertain, but I'm guessing that at the very least it involves looking the other way. His brazen response to the OP (see first post) is evidence enough for me.

But as all the shilling apologists have said, it's really each person's individual choice. And because of that, to me the bottom line is that this discussion is very worthwhile. At worst, no one changes any of their bidding or consigning habits, but at best, we chink away just a little bit at some of the problems with ebay.

My apologies to Steve or anyone of our other regular posters who I might have offended with my comments.