Cheatriots At It Again....

Runscott · #1 01-24-2015, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Lots of opinions being offered about how big and blatant a 2 psi difference is, etc, but wouldn't it be fun to do a blind psi test of footballs and see if people could actually easily identify a 11 psi ball, compared to a 12 or 13.

Ian, my comments as to whether or not 11 out of 12 balls could deflate that much naturally, weren't my own opinion.

There was an article in yesterday's Seattle Times where a woman who made 70 NFL balls a day for Wilson was interviewed. She worked there for 48 years. According to her, "When it leaves our factory, they may have trouble with a bladder every once in a while with losing some air, but when they have 11 out of 12 balls losing air, it's not Wilson's fault." The only way to remove that much air that quickly would be to put a needle in the valve and let the air seep out, said Kevin Murphy, who runs the American football division at Wilson. Wilson, he said, goes to great lengths to ensure the NFL balls do not leak, even in extreme heat or cold. Every ball has a special three-ply urethane bladder inside, and during production the balls are filled with 100 pounds of air pressure, then deflated to 13 pounds of pressure.

I think Brady stuck his foot in his mouth by repeatedly stating that he prefers 12.5, but that he can't tell the difference between 10.5 and 12.5. Perhaps the blind test you describe should be tried - you would think someone out there would have done that by now, just to draw attention to their blog.

nolemmings · #2 01-24-2015, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Patriot-hating is not on most people's minds as much as the Pats fans would like to think. You love yourselves a lot more than others hate you.

Very well stated, and much more tactful than my comments (sorry Fred).

It's hard to believe that Troy Aikman, John Madden, Kurt Warner. et al. are all jealous of the Patriots' success or "hate" them for some reason when they state the quarterback had to know what was going on, and Mark Brunnell looked far more hurt than angry in saying he could not believe Tom Brady.

I'm still at a loss as to why they held those pressers at all. It is almost borderline hubris to think that they would put an end to the matter or even really slow the story's momentum, especially since Brady knew beforehand that his answers were going to be simple denial--denial that he had to believe his peers would find not credible, unless he truly thinks he is beyond public inquiry and potential scorn. A real head scratcher for me.

GoldenAge50s · #3 01-24-2015, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Very well stated, and much more tactful than my comments (sorry Fred).

Not a problem Todd! I don't take internet chatter too personally no matter what is said, just wanted to put in my support for the Patriots regardless how others feel.

Runscott · #4 01-24-2015, 11:48 AM

Thanks Todd - tact is not normally my strong suit. Agreed on the reaction of ex-NFL qb's. Brunnell really did look hurt. I was also surprised at Aikman's response. As far as Brady's press conference attitude - if he is lying, then there is no other way to take it than that he feels he is beyond reproach. But look at ARod, McGwire, Braun, Lance Armstrong. All of these athletes seemingly should have known they would eventually be caught, and to us 'normal folks', honesty up-front was a no-brainer approach to the fix each was in. But do we have ANY examples of a pro athlete who has been truthful before the proof was shown? I can't think of s single one.

We discussed deflate-gate over pints at the pub last night and an old(er) geezer had the best comment: "some guy with the Pats carries a needle, pops it in and deflates the balls - how hard is that?" It made me wonder - how similar was the psi in the 11 balls? If pretty much exact it would lead you to believe that the equipment manager was a pro at this - pop in the needle for x seconds, move to the next one, etc. If not for Aikman and Brunnell's reactions, I would assume that it's so easy, and so beneficial to the teams, that more would be doing it.

HRBAKER · #5 01-24-2015, 12:51 PM

I think there's some truth in both sides of this. I think the vitriol is greater than it would be bc it involves the Patriots. The winning, the previous nefarity, the smug, arrogant, irascible Head Coach and the the pretty boy QB with the supermodel wife. It's the same dynamic that makes the arrows slung at Barry Bonds much greater than the ones at Mark McGwire - the smug/arrogant/a**holish behavior.

vintagetoppsguy · #6 01-24-2015, 01:19 PM

Fran Tarkenton phone interview...

http://video.foxnews.com/v/400569367...#sp=show-clips

yanks12025 · #7 01-24-2015, 01:26 PM

http://youtu.be/aHukC_yH7Ys

Watch this video.

Ladder7 · #8 01-24-2015, 01:24 PM

This has been a hilarious and hideous week for all. People are just nutso -Admittedly, I'm no different.

To the Hatriots fans or those that think we all should abandon our team. I want to know who ordered the "code red" first. I know few do but, I choose to await the league's opinion/recommendation/sentence and not impune before the investigation is complete.

It's like trying to reason with a rabid Kim Jong il/un here. I'm tired of hearing "haters gonna hate" from our fans too. Everyone of us should want to know the specifics of what went down (pun intended).

One thing I do know, The cartoons and texts I've been getting are clever as Hell -from both camps. Just received another as I'm typing this -Hernandez loading a glock or something sick. Well, hope there's a decision soon. Until then, LGP!

(Now when the heck is baseball starting?)

vintagetoppsguy · #9 01-24-2015, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladder7

To the Hatriots fans or those that think we all should abandon our team. I want to know who ordered the "code red" first.

Nobody thinks that you should abandon your team. Where are you coming up with this stuff? We just said that the Patriots were caught cheating and they need to be punished.

You sound really bitter. Are you like this in real life, or is this just your internet persona?

Ladder7 · #10 01-24-2015, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody thinks that you should abandon your team. Where are you coming up with this stuff? We just said that the Patriots were caught cheating and they need to be punished.

You sound really bitter. Are you like this in real life, or is this just your internet persona?

Thanks for your concern. No, just disappointed in the close-minded... I'm sitting on a lounger beneath a palm tree, over looking the ocean. Waiting for paychecks to arrive. Bitter?.. Hardly.

Belichick just came on, talk later!

itjclarke · #11 01-24-2015, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Ian, my comments as to whether or not 11 out of 12 balls could deflate that much naturally, weren't my own opinion.

There was an article in yesterday's Seattle Times where a woman who made 70 NFL balls a day for Wilson was interviewed. She worked there for 48 years. According to her, "When it leaves our factory, they may have trouble with a bladder every once in a while with losing some air, but when they have 11 out of 12 balls losing air, it's not Wilson's fault." The only way to remove that much air that quickly would be to put a needle in the valve and let the air seep out, said Kevin Murphy, who runs the American football division at Wilson. Wilson, he said, goes to great lengths to ensure the NFL balls do not leak, even in extreme heat or cold. Every ball has a special three-ply urethane bladder inside, and during production the balls are filled with 100 pounds of air pressure, then deflated to 13 pounds of pressure.

I think Brady stuck his foot in his mouth by repeatedly stating that he prefers 12.5, but that he can't tell the difference between 10.5 and 12.5. Perhaps the blind test you describe should be tried - you would think someone out there would have done that by now, just to draw attention to their blog.

I in no way doubt someone let air out, and think it was most likely done per Brady's preference. I was just curious if people would be aware, to the touch, of the different pressures they're shouting about. Not even saying they wouldn't (though Huard quote was interesting), but could you pick an odd ball or two out of 24, or tell if all 12 were under inflated? I have always preferred a lightly under inflated ball, but have NO idea what psi they were ever inflated to. Footballs say- "inflate to 13 lbs", but never once have I seen a psi gauge on a ball pump, so I personally have little/no true point of reference. As an aside, if you want to feel a difference, hold some of the various college and HS that have been used over the years, on all other levels including major D-1. These ball variations have not set a tone of uniformity in football as a whole. The difference between the old Wilson 1001 and 1005 collegiate ball was crazy (it reminded me of the crazy -5, vs normal -3 metal bats used in college back then)... and Wilson is not the only game ball supplier.

I agree Brady's stated preference of 12.5 psi makes him look bad as he tries to deflect this... just as would Rodgers' known preference for highly inflated footballs if his were found to be over inflated. My guess would be Brady wants a little air let out in wet/cold weather. I still think this has been blown way way out of proportion, especially considering how all the custom ball prep (I'm sure often including softness or hardness based on inflation) has been a non issue, and has been "enforced" as such. As said, if the league wants to go the route of the "K" ball with game balls, and supply all game balls, then this sort of doctoring should be a big deal. Until then, I can't justify getting upset about something no one really cared about, or cared to enforce.

Oddly enough, my dad got me a college ball for my birthday years ago when I was in HS. I never even used it (was saving it until my old one was worn out) but within a year of so, the bladder had failed and it wouldn't hold air. I definitely don't think this is at all the case with the Pats, but know those things can go bad. Still have that ball stashed away.

nolemmings · #12 01-24-2015, 05:31 PM

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

Runscott · #13 01-24-2015, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

Todd, you just hate the Patriots. I'm so disappointed.

itjclarke · #14 01-24-2015, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

Reinforces your earlier point, the response is worse than the crime.. And their response has been awkward to say the least. Saw bits of his presser today, I think saying they didn't have hands on balls from the time they were prepped/measured until game time. Like Scott said though, all you need is the needle to let air out.

Still, not at all upset with Pats if they did this, and deflate-gate is still stupid.

pgellis · #15 01-24-2015, 07:24 PM

So it's OK with you that they broke the rules and cheated?

itjclarke · #16 01-24-2015, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgellis

So it's OK with you that they broke the rules and cheated?

Just pulling an example off the top of my head.. But is it ok with you that base coaches rarely stand in their allotted box? Step outside that box, you can theoretically try to get a better angle to steal signs, or catcher location, or get closer to talk to your batter, or read lips, or whatever. As is though, everybody does it, no one cares, and no one enforces it, so the people doing it probably don't feel like they're cheating. I think the similar applies here, and am surprised by how fired up people are getting.

If the league had cared at all about this rule in its history, they'd simply supply all game balls, that meet their required specs... They don't (nor does any level of football), and so teams/QBs/staff have been more or less allowed to this stuff forever, probably without really considering it's being "cheating" (should the base coach have a guilty conscience?). Going forward, I'm guessing this changes though, which I also think is lame because I'm 100% fine with QBs being given some leeway on the feel of the footballs they use. But I think with all the attention, this will become something that becomes more rigidly enforced. All other teams, be happy your team wasn't the one this blew up on.. Packer fans, be happy Rodgers didn't get caught with a 14 psi ball, simply because no one had ever cared to check... And Peyton Manning fans, be ready to see your QB launch even more ducky looking ducks.

itjclarke · #17 01-24-2015, 08:19 PM

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of cheating. I think spygate was really bad, as was what the Saints did, but I also don't think that secretly filming practices or listening in on coordinators/visiting locker rooms was a generally accepted practice. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean that some rules violations are far less serious than others.

Love Pete Carroll- "it's serious for them" comment. My gut tells me inside he's probably thinking, who cares but better them than us.

Runscott · #18 01-24-2015, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Just pulling an example off the top of my head.. But is it ok with you that base coaches rarely stand in their allotted box? Step outside that box, you can theoretically try to get a better angle to steal signs, or catcher location, or get closer to talk to your batter, or read lips, or whatever. As is though, everybody does it, no one cares, and no one enforces it, so the people doing it probably don't feel like they're cheating. I think the similar applies here, and am surprised by how fired up people are getting.

Base coaches aren't hiding - they are right there in the open and could be told to get back in their box. If you are saying that everyone knows that quarterbacks are having air let out of their balls, then I would agree with you, but the quarterbacks we have heard from so far are not saying that at all.

The best example I can think of is corked bats or spitballs. Tim Hudson still throws spitballs and I'm sure the league knows it and has decided to ignore it. But it's cheating. <== blatant product advertising as I own a documented Hudson spitball