Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Hi Guys, I normally post on the football board, hope you don't mind me jumping in... Here are 2 scenarios:

Case 1: Card has market value ~100, high bidder at 80 with hidden reserve at 100.01

The card would have sold for 80 except the owner of the cards jumps in with a schill bid of 99.99

This is basically the OP's case - cheated out of 20 bucks in my scenario. The amount doesn't matter - it's illegal, immoral, etc. I get it.

Case 2: Same as Case 1, except schill bidder gets aggressive and bids 104.99. Now he wins!

What happens next? Does he say: "Um, excuse me Mr. Consigner, I accidentally won my own item, can you please auction it again?" How awkward would that be? And even if the consigner had no ethics, how would the consigner know it isn't a sting?

Does the schiller just quietly buy his own item? Let's do the math. Say he paid 95 originally, 104.99 + 3.50 shipping, so he's up to 203.49. But he gets a consignment check for 104.99*.88 = 92.39. So he's out 111.10 on the card now. If he sends it in again and gets say 110 on the second attempt - he still loses. Plus he paid to ship it in twice which I didn't even count. Is it worth it? Might it not be more rational to let the card sell on its own (legally) rather than play this schilling game?

If anyone out there isn't already burnt out on this toplic, thanks for your thoughts.

ive mentioned this many times as a reason shilling really polices itself...on the big auction houses you would lose 20 percent...yeah some may want to protect what they think is a steal and pay the 20 percent..but really how many times can you do that as 10-20% really eats away at any profit you want to realize... just doesn't make sense as well if you have a 200 dollar card and its up to 250 which for example is 50 over VCP..why risk 'winning' the card if lose 10-20% when already way above VCP .

I keep seeing how people are saying the same card a week later on PROBSTEIN auction goes 3x what it went for last week...it really doesn't make sense...who the heck would risk 'winning' the card when they own the card when already sky high over what they would hope to expect.

there are also lots of people on net54 who say they consigned cards and got terrible results...so it cant be both ways...everyone cant be selling their cards way below market and everyone else who is buying cards that are consigned are being shilled way over market..

[glchen]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

...
there are also lots of people on net54 who say they consigned cards and got terrible results...so it cant be both ways...everyone cant be selling their cards way below market and everyone else who is buying cards that are consigned are being shilled way over market..

This is exactly how shilling affects you. You don't shill, you often get terrible results when your cards go to auction. Why do you consider these "terrible" results? Because you bought too high, which may have been due to shilling.

[Sophiedog]

If the consignor gets greedy and wins the item, What happens? Nothing....He just doesn't pay; the seller waits for his money back from Ebay for final fees and the card is listed again....Seller can't leave neg feedback and the sellers that take consignments know the consignors themselves might be bidding so wouldn't leave neg even if they could...bad for future business...Ï hate shilling as much as the next collector....but....it's everywhere...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by glchen

This is exactly how shilling affects you. You don't shill, you often get terrible results when your cards go to auction. Why do you consider these "terrible" results? Because you bought too high, which may have been due to shilling.

people aren't really talking about ebay ..they are talking about the AH's that charge 20 percent..you cant keep paying 20% when winning your own items..makes no sense ..

as to ebay....yes the bid retraction feature is there up to 24 hours before the item is to sell....you will know which sellers have lots of bid retractions..

plus once you have a 'terrible' result..then why don't bidders price accordingly to the lowest card..why do they value cards with the high bids....we control what we bid....if ebay is terrible in terms of not punishing bidders that win their own items than don't factor in ebay on VCP pricing...lots of ways to deal with shilling...there are so many other things that are wrong that we cant control in life..i don't see shilling as a problem..the major major buys are usually with auctions houses not ebay...if a seller wants 20k on a 1952 mantle..and its at 17k .you really think he will shill it to the next bidding slot lets say 19k....if he 'wins' he will pay 4k with an auction house...no way he bids to that with that risk

[glchen]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

people aren't really talking about ebay ..they are talking about the AH's that charge 20 percent..you cant keep paying 20% when winning your own items..makes no sense ..

as to ebay....yes the bid retraction feature is there up to 24 hours before the item is to sell....you will know which sellers have lots of bid retractions..

plus once you have a 'terrible' result..then why don't bidders price accordingly to the lowest card..why do they value cards with the high bids....we control what we bid....if ebay is terrible in terms of not punishing bidders that win their own items than don't factor in ebay on VCP pricing...lots of ways to deal with shilling...there are so many other things that are wrong that we cant control in life..i don't see shilling as a problem..the major major buys are usually with auctions houses not ebay...if a seller wants 20k on a 1952 mantle..and its at 17k .you really think he will shill it to the next bidding slot lets say 19k....if he 'wins' he will pay 4k with an auction house...no way he bids to that with that risk

This thread is talking mostly about ebay as probstein is one of the largest ebay sellers of sportscards.

You know how many bid retractions that a bidder has on ebay, but not necessarily how many non payment strikes. A shiller can "win" an auction on ebay, and simply not pay, and the card would go to the next highest bidder or be re-listed again where the same process happens.

It's true that you control what you bid, but people usually base their bids upon past auction sales (of the same card or similar cards). However, if the prices of those cards that you are using as your value basis were shilled up, then the entire foundation that you are using to base your bids upon is flawed.

About issues with auction houses, you want to remember what happened to Mastronet...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by glchen

This thread is talking mostly about ebay as probstein is one of the largest ebay sellers of sportscards.

You know how many bid retractions that a bidder has on ebay, but not necessarily how many non payment strikes. A shiller can "win" an auction on ebay, and simply not pay, and the card would go to the next highest bidder or be re-listed again where the same process happens.

It's true that you control what you bid, but people usually base their bids upon past auction sales (of the same card or similar cards). However, if the prices of those cards that you are using as your value basis were shilled up, then the entire foundation that you are using to base your bids upon is flawed.

About issues with auction houses, you want to remember what happened to Mastronet...

Right we went through this already.....Ebay past sales shouldn't hold as much value as there is no penalty to the shiller versus AHs...and when a card finally gets crushed at an AH because of the past shilling foundation you speak of..now we would have the new real value.....taking ebay out of it..i really don't see how taking a risk to bid on your own card when its at VCP or 10 percent less is worth it when you risk paying a 20% BP...... ..

I value AH past sales higher then ebay..and most people in the hobby that buy expensieve cards have a bunch more knowledge than me so im sure they do the same thing...thus the shilling really isn't the menace people make it out to be

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

..thus the shilling really isn't the menace people make it out to be

Yes it is.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes it is.

Leon- If buyers actually had to pay 20% if won their own items, do you agree that its not as big a deal as many think. I understand there may be issues if they acutally have to pay the 20%, but lets assume you lose 20% if you win your own item, don't you think that's enough of a penalty.

thus if I were to bid on an item, I would know that if the bidder under me was prepared to lose 20% if 'won' the item is pretty comforting to me ..

yes I know you will come up with examples if the item is about to sell for 40% lower than perceived market so people bid on their own items..i say go ahead and eat 20% ..you really think they will want to eat another 20% on the same card?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

ive mentioned this many times as a reason shilling really polices itself...

And it's just as stupid illogical each time.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Runscott

And it's just as stupid illogical each time.

Scott, it was deduced several threads ago that he is the long lost relative of Yogi Berra.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Scott, it was deduced several threads ago that he is the long lost relative of Yogi Berra.

LOL, thats funny. I thought he was a short fisherman by his posts.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, thats funny. I thought he was a short fisherman by his posts.

I thought he collected Boyntons. I guess only the ones from 1952, which I hear are only theoretical.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I thought he collected Boyntons. I guess only the ones from 1952, which I hear are only theoretical.

better than ANOTHER attorney