Rare Shoeless Joe Jackson autograph

milkit1 · #1 02-09-2015, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sb1

Um.........he signed the card at the bottom, he did not fill out the info. Two entirely different hands at work. His actual signature at the bottom of the draft card looks nothing like the ball. AND I know next to nothing about autographs.

I'm not referring to the ball just the photo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Then his autograph must have really deteriorated in the five years between when he signed that photo and that draft card.

Deteriorated and sloppy are two different things. Squeezing his name on to the bottom of a draft card and having free reign on a 5x7 photo could certainly cause a sloppier autograph for an already sloppy autographer. That's the other thing I never understood is people assuming that one autograph has no variations? I signed my name twice a day on my timesheet and cant tell you how many times each one looks significantly different. These (the photo and the draft card) are far from significantly different.

milkit1 · #2 02-09-2015, 06:57 PM

Theonly thing I find suspicious is having two different teams from two different leagues signed on these photos.. I assume the photographer would have had to get the photos developed and then come back and have them signed so even the two teams playing an exhibition game seems unlikely?

Runscott · #3 02-09-2015, 07:09 PM

Sean, I was wondering the same thing. First thought was that a lot of these players never made the team (Giants or Indians), so he would had to have gotten the prints made quickly, just to find the players again to sign. Maybe he took them at the beginning of spring training (March), was covering just these two teams, and got them developed over a few days. He would have kept a negative logbook of some sort, so if they were still around after the prints were developed, it shouldn't have been a problem.

Whoever was asking about print dating - read the earlier posts.

Mark17 · #4 02-09-2015, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkit1

Theonly thing I find suspicious is having two different teams from two different leagues signed on these photos.. I assume the photographer would have had to get the photos developed and then come back and have them signed so even the two teams playing an exhibition game seems unlikely?

New York had teams in both leagues - it would be easy to take pics of the Giants at the Polo Grounds, then get some shots of the team visiting the Highlanders...

But then where would the connection to the Cleveland barn come from?

What strikes me as odd are the following two quotes that don't seem to fit together:

"The family offered to sell the scrapbook five years ago to Bowen's husband because they knew how much he treasured the 60 photos. The price tag: $15,000."

"A collector all his life, he appreciated its history and connection to his hometown. Not knowing the book's sky-high value, they never locked it up or worried about keeping it out of sight. "It wasn't an investment," she said."

So, I ask myself, who pays $15,000 for 60 pictures without doing a little research? For that matter, who SELLS 60 pictures for $15k without doing research? And how is that expenditure not an investment? Also, how does a guy who's been "a collector all his life" not know Joe Jackson signatures are quite rare and valuable?

It just sounds odd. I'm not an autograph guy, but should the two "J"s be so different, with the second being so wide? and the "s" on his last name looks more well-formed than images I've seen of his signature. But I don't know anything about that, it's the story I don't quite buy.

Runscott · #5 02-09-2015, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

New York had teams in both leagues - it would be easy to take pics of the Giants at the Polo Grounds, then get some shots of the team visiting the Highlanders...

But then where would the connection to the Cleveland barn come from?

It was Spring Training - March. The teams might have been right next to each other. I'm sure someone around here can find out where the two teams had spring training in 1911.

The 'discovery' part of the story sounds like hogwash.

Mark17 · #6 02-09-2015, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

It was Spring Training - March. The teams might have been right next to each other. I'm sure someone around here can find out where the two teams had spring training in 1911.

The 'discovery' part of the story sounds like hogwash.

Doesn't the inscription say: Alexandria, May 1911?

In any case, the photos could've been taken in spring training, or in some town (Like Alexandria, VA) as the teams were working their way north to start the season, later developed, and then the sigs could've been obtained as I mentioned - sometime when Cleveland and the Giants were both in NY, hence the May inscription.

I'm sure the Giants spring training facility is mentioned in The Glory of Their Times, maybe with regards to the stories about Charles "Victory" Faust joining the team down there.

Mark17 · #7 02-09-2015, 07:50 PM

The Heritage description for the other photos in the collection says:

"The majority of the photographs were snapped at Cleveland's 1911 spring training grounds of Alexandria, Louisiana.."

milkit1 · #8 02-09-2015, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Doesn't the inscription say: Alexandria, May 1911?

In any case, the photos could've been taken in spring training, or in some town (Like Alexandria, VA) as the teams were working their way north to start the season, later developed, and then the sigs could've been obtained as I mentioned - sometime when Cleveland and the Giants were both in NY, hence the May inscription.

I'm sure the Giants spring training facility is mentioned in The Glory of Their Times, maybe with regards to the stories about Charles "Victory" Faust joining the team down there.

Very good point regarding them possibly playing together in the same location during spring training

Mark17 · #9 02-09-2015, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkit1

Very good point regarding them possibly playing together in the same location during spring training

I think I was wrong about that. In The Glory of Their Times, Fred Snodgrass says, after McGraw offered him a contract for the 1908 season:

"Well, as you can well imagine, I was on that train four days later, going to marlin Texas...The Giants had bought a piece of property in marlin, Texas, a town of about 4,000 or 5,000 people, and had constructed a bal, park there for spring-training purposes...We trained there every spring I was with the Giants, which was until 1915..."

Unfortunately for the theory, marlin is about 300 miles due west of Alexandria, LA.

Scott Garner · #10 02-22-2015, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Doesn't the inscription say: Alexandria, May 1911?

In any case, the photos could've been taken in spring training, or in some town (Like Alexandria, VA) as the teams were working their way north to start the season, later developed, and then the sigs could've been obtained as I mentioned - sometime when Cleveland and the Giants were both in NY, hence the May inscription.

I'm sure the Giants spring training facility is mentioned in The Glory of Their Times, maybe with regards to the stories about Charles "Victory" Faust joining the team down there.

The Giants trained in Marlin, TX didn't they?

Mark17 · #11 02-22-2015, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

The Giants trained in Marlin, TX didn't they?

Yes, I mentioned that in Post #50 in this thread:

...In The Glory of Their Times, Fred Snodgrass says, after McGraw offered him a contract for the 1908 season:

"Well, as you can well imagine, I was on that train four days later, going to marlin Texas...The Giants had bought a piece of property in Marlin, Texas, a town of about 4,000 or 5,000 people, and had constructed a bal, park there for spring-training purposes...We trained there every spring I was with the Giants, which was until 1915..."

vintagesportscollector · #12 02-09-2015, 07:07 PM

I know nothing of autographs, so no intent to throw fuel on the fire, but I will say that I have the worst handwriting of anyone I know, and I am admittedly embarrassed and uncomfortable with my signature. It has changed significantly over the years and today varies notably fom signing to signing. I recall purchasing one of my homes and filling out all the mortgage and legal documents, and the lawyer asked me to do it all again because my signatures varied so much.

To me the photo and draft card are not that significantly different, or at least reasonable that the same person could have done them.

vintagetoppsguy · #13 02-09-2015, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkit1

Squeezing his name on to the bottom of a draft card and having free reign on a 5x7 photo could certainly cause a sloppier autograph for an already sloppy autographer.

I don't know a lot about autographs, but I definitely agree with this statement. I write large, typically have a large signature. Whenever I sign my name on a check, it looks a lot different than when I sign my name to another type of document. The reason is, is that the "J" in my last name tends to have a large bottom loop. Well, since there isn't much room at the bottom of a check, I have to modify the "J" to make it fit the check (otherwise it runs off the bottom).

vintagesportscollector · #14 02-09-2015, 07:17 PM

49 license clearly not his signature....(edit) oh you pointed that out already Scott.

Runscott · #15 02-09-2015, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagesportscollector

49 license clearly not his signature....(edit) oh you pointed that out already Scott.

That's his wife's signature, which is funny since it says 'Usual Signature'. She usually signed for him, so I guess it made sense.

Wow - I'm learning.

David Atkatz · #16 02-09-2015, 07:23 PM

The '49 license was obviously proxy-signed by Kate. I don't know who signed the contract--except that it wasn't Jackson.

canjond · #17 02-09-2015, 07:34 PM

Years ago, didn't one of the big auction houes sell a Joe Jackson signed photograph? From what I remember, the signature had been traced over because of Jackson poor handwriting, and subsequently a conservator removed the "traced over" portion leaving the original signature intact?

Runscott · #18 02-09-2015, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canjond

Years ago, didn't one of the big auction houes sell a Joe Jackson signed photograph? From what I remember, the signature had been traced over because of Jackson poor handwriting, and subsequently a conservator removed the "traced over" portion leaving the original signature intact?

You could be right - I based my comment on Heritage's claim

sporteq · #19 02-13-2015, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canjond

Years ago, didn't one of the big auction houes sell a Joe Jackson signed photograph? From what I remember, the signature had been traced over because of Jackson poor handwriting, and subsequently a conservator removed the "traced over" portion leaving the original signature intact?

YES! Rob Lifson had a Shoeless Joe Jackson portrait photo signed in his auction over 20 years ago, I think. It had a glaze like substance to preserve the signature. I'll locate the auction and scan it. I believe it was authenticated by Charles Hamilton? It has been awhile.

Albert

sporteq · #20 02-13-2015, 06:05 PM

Robert Edward Auction Sept 18, 1994 Pre internet.

Albert

sb1 · #21 02-09-2015, 07:19 PM

I meant photo. my mistake, the documents you provide are the same as the draft card.

Runscott · #22 02-09-2015, 07:19 PM

If the Heritage photo is real, it's the only signed Joe Jackson photo in existence.

I think there are enough authentic Jackson signatures to compare it to, even if you toss out all the baseballs.

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