Original 12-card horizontal E91 strip may reveal 1909 printing format

[Zach Wheat]

Ted,

What are your thoughts in regards to the T201 set?

Z wheat

[ZachS]

Dave is right... every card is double printed.



........1..............1.............2............ 3.............4............5.............6........ ...2.............3.............4.............5.... .........6

[tedzan]

Double post

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Ted,

What are your thoughts in regards to the T201 set?

Z wheat

Sorry for the delay in responding.

The same 19-inch printing press used for printing T205's, T206's, etc., etc., was most likely used to print the T201 cards. As I show here, 8 cards
across the sheet fit quite easily.


v................................................. ......................................... 17-inches .................................................. ........................................v






TED Z
.

[steve B]

Interesting stuff. Here's a few thoughts.

The E91s would have been in sheets while being made. It's possible they were issued as strips, but wouldn't have been printed as strips. Especially if you go with a 19" press, I can't imagine the challenge of running a 19 wide by 2-5 inch high strip into a press.

Do we know the E91s were done at ALC?

Which is related to

ALC is known to have used several hoe #5 presses, which were 19 inch. But that comes from a Scientific American article about their converting to electric power and is from a shop floor layout drawing showing only one floor and possibly only one room of the overall shop.

They would have had several different size presses, anywhere from small proofing presses that would fit on an end table to really large ones much larger than 19 inches wide.


The strips shown, even the 16 card strip have no right margin. Typically a margin is used all around the printed area because the press usually doesn't print well towards the edges of the sheet. So it's not certain the sheet was only 16 cards wide. It's certain it was at least 16 wide. A fine but important distinction.
I have seen a couple cards that might indicate ALC running without a margin on one side, the one that comes to mind right off is a T201 with a diamond miscut and showing part of the left margin.

The 16 card strip doesn't preclude a 19 inch press, as it would be possible to run a sheet about 19 x 24+ the long way. That's not typical, but could be done. Modern presses aren't set up to feed a sheet in narrow end first unless you're using a larger press than the width. (It's all about the diameter of the blanket cylinder) But the old ones have a very large cylinder.
That's actually a fairly close fit for the set. it would be a 16x6 card sheet, or 96 cards -2.9 sets/sheet with one card slightly short printed. That would also work on a press a bit larger, around 25-26 wide.

Steve B

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Interesting stuff. Here's a few thoughts.

Do we know the E91s were done at ALC?


The 16 card strip doesn't preclude a 19 inch press, as it would be possible to run a sheet about 19 x 24+ the long way. That's not typical, but could be done.
Steve B

Thanks for chiming in here. I appreciate your expertise on printing matters.

1st....E91's (and most Candy cards) were printed in the greater Philadelphia (or York, PA) area. I have been unable to find out what printing firm produced them. Also, printed at
this same unknown Pennsy printing firm were the T216 tobacco cards (KOTTON, MINO, VIRGINIA EXTRA).

2nd....turning the printing plates 90 degrees to print a 16-card wide strip (or sheet) long-wise on a standard 19" x 24" sheet of cardboard is absolutely impractical and inefficient.

Sorry to disagree with you.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Mile High also had an 18 card strip in one of their auctions.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Mile High also had an 18 card strip in one of their auctions.

Take us to DEFCON 3.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Thanks for chiming in here. I appreciate your expertise on printing matters.

1st....E91's (and most Candy cards) were printed in the greater Philadelphia (or York, PA) area. I have been unable to find out what printing firm produced them. Also, printed at
this same unknown Pennsy printing firm were the T216 tobacco cards (KOTTON, MINO, VIRGINIA EXTRA).

2nd....turning the printing plates 90 degrees to print a 16-card wide strip (or sheet) long-wise on a standard 19" x 24" sheet of cardboard is absolutely impractical and inefficient.

Sorry to disagree with you.


TED Z
.

Thanks Ted,

1 - That makes sense, the packing was more local than ATCs multiple plants. It would be interesting to see what the company used if we ever find out the company name. A good search of old printing magazines should turn up a few possibilities.

2 - Yes, impractical, inefficient, so unlikely. But probably possible. Possible as I use it is in the technical sense, with no implication as to whether it's either likely or a good idea. (Like it's possible I could hit a major league fastball, but extremely unlikely. )

As I've looked for more info, I've found that Hoe company made presses ranging from number 1 through at least number 5 maybe 6 with a few half sizes. They also numbered their letterpress presses with the same numbers. Some stuff I've just seen indicates the Hoe #5 Litho press was far larger than 19" And even the #3 was a big one.

Steve B

[steve B]

From "national lithographer" vol 28 an ad showing the maximum stone size of the Hoe number 5 and 3 lithographic presses.




From "aluminum world" volumes 4-6 --vol 6 number 3 December 1899. A brief mention of a two color litho press using aluminum plates being installed at ALC. The first mention I've seen of ALC actually having a two color press, which I've suspected they might have had and used for some of the card issues.



So there were a lot of big presses out there.

Steve B

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

From "national lithographer" vol 28 an ad showing the maximum stone size of the Hoe number 5 and 3 lithographic presses.




From "aluminum world" volumes 4-6 --vol 6 number 3 December 1899. A brief mention of a two color litho press using aluminum plates being installed at ALC. The first mention I've seen of ALC actually having a two color press, which I've suspected they might have had and used for some of the card issues.



So there were a lot of big presses out there.

Steve B

Of course American Lithographic operated presses of varying sizes. The large presses listed here were primarily employed for large advertising posters, artworks, murals, etc.

Anyhow, its my understanding that for small-size, 6-color jobs (i.e., T205's, T206's, T209's, T213's, etc.), 19" presses were optimum for producing higher quality resolution
plus greater product yields.

And I will remind you, that you were the one who originally informed us that the standard size sheets available (circa 1909-1911) were 19" x 24".

Look, I'm not the experienced printer as you are, but I have read a lot about printing practices. And, I don't see T206's having been printed on any of those large size presses
listed here which were limited to a 2-color printing process.


TED Z
.