1900s Silver Figural Baseball Music Box

[Shoeless Moe]

So is possible these were made at 2 different time frames, 2 different companies?

[bobfreedman]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

So is possible these were made at 2 different time frames, 2 different companies?

I believe that is very possible, the one for $242 looks smaller and generally cheaper IMHO

[Shoeless Moe]

That make more sense that there is an older more expensive version and a newer (40's/50's) knockoff version, still worth a grand or 2, but looks like yours is of the nicer version.

[murphusa]

Boy are you guys tough.

Remember what I said before, no two are alike they were hand etched

In the last 20 years only 6 examples have come to puBlic sale

Hunt was the first to offer that I can find and theirs was the one from the Wrigley family or so they say because it has a W on the home plate section. It sold for $9500

Hunt then sold a different one for $8500. This one was then resold for $13,145 at Legendary in 8/11
It was also sold again last month for $22,000

Hunt also sold another for $6,500 which was different than all the others as the home plate was engraved

The one that sold for $1011 with a $242 estimate from an authenticator was the smaller version made inn the 50's. I know this because the movement has the same turners as other thorns boxes from the 50's

The $26,290 one with the player is also a 40's style, again based on the music box winder

Bob great buy the other night was different from all the others. It is the larger size. Due to the movements winder it was made in the 40's as we're all the above except for the 1011 example.

In my opinion, he stole it as we say. This example is in the same class as the $22,000 and the $26,000 boxes.

In a major auction it is my opinion that he would equal those prices.

[vintagesportscollector]

This is an interesting debate/discussion. Still a bit of mystery on this…but two things we can all agree on…1)It is a great piece, and 2)Bob got it at a great price. (and 3..Jim has done great research on these Thorn pieces )

However, the $22K and $26K boxes were listed as much earlier, not 40s. (Jim – you said yourself in a previous post..” Bob I would be patting myself on the back knowing that I had only paid what you did and not the $15,000 or upwards based on a bad description”).

So, do we think the box would equal those prices if correctly described as the 40s? I don’t know and won’t pretend to know (and for Bob’s sake hope it would go in that class), but curious to what people’s thoughts are. Seems based on the posters in this thread we have some that think it would go high, and others that have serious doubt.

In my opinion the difference in the dating can very significantly alter the price. I can see the same seller who previously paid $22K/26K having serious concern learning this was 40’s, and not much earlier as described. Even Bob said “I am very happy with my purchase and have no regrets (the story would not have been the same had I paid $15k+ for it)”..so it would seem even the value in Bob's eyes is somewhat diminished learning of the 40s date.

Again just curious on everyones thoughts now, as we all seem to be changing our “tune” (pun intended ) on this piece.

Not trying to drag Bob through the mud..actually I think we are all celebrating this piece, and his pickup, and are engaged in the discovery with Bob. I agree super rare, high demand and will command a strong price, but $22 -26K?..wow!

[bobfreedman]

Joe. What I had meant by my comment was that if I had paid $15k for one in the last auction (or north of that) and someone bought this one for $2300, I would feel sick about spending $13k more for something that had just sold 10 days ago. Had I not won this one I would still be on the lookout for one and be willing to go after it and pay up to $15k for it. I think that the market for this is around $15 - $25k.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Joe. What I had meant by my comment was that if I had paid $15k for one in the last auction (or north of that) and someone bought this one for $2300, I would feel sick about spending $13k more for something that had just sold 10 days ago. Had I not won this one I would still be on the lookout for one and be willing to go after it and pay up to $15k for it. I think that the market for this is around $15 - $25k.

Ok. My apologies for misinterpreting your quote(and putting words in your mouth .) So that fact that this is now known to be a 40's piece, and not much earlier as previously thought, doesn't diminish the value for you? not poking, just curious, because if the same can be said for other people in the market, then I absolutely agree with you Bob that the market is $15-25K.

[Shoeless Moe]

We won't know until the next one goes to auction and it's listed as its true date of 40's 50's, then my guess is 5K-15K (pretty broad range yes......but who doesn't like a pretty broad)

[murphusa]

As I did more research on the boxes I changer my mind.

Except in very rare cases, in the baseball memorabilia world the collector paying $26,000 for a music box does not do so on impulse.

They have a very good idea on what they are buying.

The information on the boxes is out there

If you take an hour you could find the real story and then make a decession on your purchase

What disturbes us is the $26,000 buyer is not know to us so we can't ask him/her

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by murphusa

As I did more research on the boxes I changer my mind.

Except in very rare cases, in the baseball memorabilia world the collector paying $26,000 for a music box does not do so on impulse.

They have a very good idea on what they are buying.

Not necessarily, people still buy bad autographs and forgeries all the time, big dollar ones too, the rich don't do a 100th the research some on here do, they trust the auction house and don't question them or when they list an an estimate next to it.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by murphusa

As I did more research on the boxes I changer my mind.

Except in very rare cases, in the baseball memorabilia world the collector paying $26,000 for a music box does not do so on impulse.

They have a very good idea on what they are buying.

The information on the boxes is out there

If you take an hour you could find the real story and then make a decession on your purchase

What disturbes us is the $26,000 buyer is not know to us so we can't ask him/her

Great point Jim, but in this case I am not so sure. As I stated earlier, the key is knowing this was a Zimbalist. Without that key piece of info, it would be very understandable to assume early 1900s (I would have).

What led to your research (keep me honest), was the Ebay listing said Zimbalist. Without that would we have any clue on the story of these boxes? I am not so sure the buyers had a very good idea on what they are buying. We have all seen more than enough examples where a buyer had more dollars than "sense" and overpaid for an item that later the knowledgeble people on this board called out.

Are we also than saying SCP and Legendary or the seller couldn't take an hour to find the real story and thus deceived? I am not saying that becuase I don't think any previous auction or buyer knew this was a Zimbalist or Thorn. Jim - Keep me honest as you did the research..but what led you to the real story?