1900s Silver Figural Baseball Music Box

[vintagesportscollector]

This is an interesting debate/discussion. Still a bit of mystery on this…but two things we can all agree on…1)It is a great piece, and 2)Bob got it at a great price. (and 3..Jim has done great research on these Thorn pieces )

However, the $22K and $26K boxes were listed as much earlier, not 40s. (Jim – you said yourself in a previous post..” Bob I would be patting myself on the back knowing that I had only paid what you did and not the $15,000 or upwards based on a bad description”).

So, do we think the box would equal those prices if correctly described as the 40s? I don’t know and won’t pretend to know (and for Bob’s sake hope it would go in that class), but curious to what people’s thoughts are. Seems based on the posters in this thread we have some that think it would go high, and others that have serious doubt.

In my opinion the difference in the dating can very significantly alter the price. I can see the same seller who previously paid $22K/26K having serious concern learning this was 40’s, and not much earlier as described. Even Bob said “I am very happy with my purchase and have no regrets (the story would not have been the same had I paid $15k+ for it)”..so it would seem even the value in Bob's eyes is somewhat diminished learning of the 40s date.

Again just curious on everyones thoughts now, as we all seem to be changing our “tune” (pun intended ) on this piece.

Not trying to drag Bob through the mud..actually I think we are all celebrating this piece, and his pickup, and are engaged in the discovery with Bob. I agree super rare, high demand and will command a strong price, but $22 -26K?..wow!

[bobfreedman]

Joe. What I had meant by my comment was that if I had paid $15k for one in the last auction (or north of that) and someone bought this one for $2300, I would feel sick about spending $13k more for something that had just sold 10 days ago. Had I not won this one I would still be on the lookout for one and be willing to go after it and pay up to $15k for it. I think that the market for this is around $15 - $25k.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Joe. What I had meant by my comment was that if I had paid $15k for one in the last auction (or north of that) and someone bought this one for $2300, I would feel sick about spending $13k more for something that had just sold 10 days ago. Had I not won this one I would still be on the lookout for one and be willing to go after it and pay up to $15k for it. I think that the market for this is around $15 - $25k.

Ok. My apologies for misinterpreting your quote(and putting words in your mouth .) So that fact that this is now known to be a 40's piece, and not much earlier as previously thought, doesn't diminish the value for you? not poking, just curious, because if the same can be said for other people in the market, then I absolutely agree with you Bob that the market is $15-25K.

[Shoeless Moe]

We won't know until the next one goes to auction and it's listed as its true date of 40's 50's, then my guess is 5K-15K (pretty broad range yes......but who doesn't like a pretty broad)

[murphusa]

As I did more research on the boxes I changer my mind.

Except in very rare cases, in the baseball memorabilia world the collector paying $26,000 for a music box does not do so on impulse.

They have a very good idea on what they are buying.

The information on the boxes is out there

If you take an hour you could find the real story and then make a decession on your purchase

What disturbes us is the $26,000 buyer is not know to us so we can't ask him/her

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by murphusa

As I did more research on the boxes I changer my mind.

Except in very rare cases, in the baseball memorabilia world the collector paying $26,000 for a music box does not do so on impulse.

They have a very good idea on what they are buying.

Not necessarily, people still buy bad autographs and forgeries all the time, big dollar ones too, the rich don't do a 100th the research some on here do, they trust the auction house and don't question them or when they list an an estimate next to it.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Not necessarily, people still buy bad autographs and forgeries all the time, big dollar ones too, the rich don't do a 100th the research some on here do, they trust the auction house and don't question them or when they list an an estimate next to it.

Smart people with money have people do their research for them

They don't rely on auction descriptions

Smarter people with the ability to do research can make a good living doing the above.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by murphusa

As I did more research on the boxes I changer my mind.

Except in very rare cases, in the baseball memorabilia world the collector paying $26,000 for a music box does not do so on impulse.

They have a very good idea on what they are buying.

The information on the boxes is out there

If you take an hour you could find the real story and then make a decession on your purchase

What disturbes us is the $26,000 buyer is not know to us so we can't ask him/her

Great point Jim, but in this case I am not so sure. As I stated earlier, the key is knowing this was a Zimbalist. Without that key piece of info, it would be very understandable to assume early 1900s (I would have).

What led to your research (keep me honest), was the Ebay listing said Zimbalist. Without that would we have any clue on the story of these boxes? I am not so sure the buyers had a very good idea on what they are buying. We have all seen more than enough examples where a buyer had more dollars than "sense" and overpaid for an item that later the knowledgeble people on this board called out.

Are we also than saying SCP and Legendary or the seller couldn't take an hour to find the real story and thus deceived? I am not saying that becuase I don't think any previous auction or buyer knew this was a Zimbalist or Thorn. Jim - Keep me honest as you did the research..but what led you to the real story?

[murphusa]

I was a bidder on the item. The listing was under music boxes 1940 to 1970's category

I looked it up and saw that the price on boxes made by Fred sold in the $750 to $ 1250.00 area. I based my bidding on that and not on other auctions as I did not know of them

After I saw the sold price I looked some more and found the others. Then the post here led me to more. Today I looked up all I could find and was able to compare all 6 that had sold.

I own a Thorne turntable that is pure heaven to listen too. They also made some of those great large metal records from the 1890's so I knew them.

I find this all fun to do.

Bottom line, if i saw bobs auction today I would have made the effort to get the money together to give it a run to at least $9500 and would have sent it to REA for the fall if I had won

[bobfreedman]

Jim, that would not have won the piece, my snipe was for well over that. I also actually had visions of winning this for less than $200 for 6 days, 23 hours and 55 minutes .

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Jim, that would not have won the piece, my snipe was for well over that. I also actually had visions of winning this for less than $200 for 6 days, 23 hours and 55 minutes .

I was high bidder with 3 hours left
So it was mine

[murphusa]

Here is something to discuss. All three hunt boxes are described as 1920's The second Hunt box sold for $8500 in July 2008. And then twice more to $22,000

If it was auctioned 3 month latter in October 2008 would it have sold for half that with the monetary collapse?

Most likely not but what $2,300. Just maybe

[murphusa]

Research, the SCP auction say tmottbg came out in 1908. And then says the music box was earth 1900's. Well it couldn't be earlier than 08
The song didn't become popular until the 20's so the thought that a company would try to sell a music box with a non popular song in 1908 doesn't fit

Sometimes logic works

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by murphusa

Research, the SCP auction say tmottbg came out in 1908. And then says the music box was earth 1900's. Well it couldn't be earlier than 08
The song didn't become popular until the 20's so the thought that a company would try to sell a music box with a non popular song in 1908 doesn't fit

Sometimes logic works

..yeah, if only more buyers demonstrated logic. I think you give far too much credit to many buyers . If only some people demonstrated half the commen sense and logic and effort to research that you do Jim. Although knowing TMOTTBG didn't become popular untl the 20s requires knowledge beyond just plain logic.

This is one of the my biggest, if not biggest, pet peeves - when AHs list dates that couldn't possibly be true, even based on their own description. I was recently reading a Legenday listing that had an item described as "1890s to 1910", eventhough in their own description they "stated the tag dates the uniform to 1905", well then why the f__k did you say "1890s to...".

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by murphusa

I was a bidder on the item. The listing was under music boxes 1940 to 1970's category

I looked it up and saw that the price on boxes made by Fred sold in the $750 to $ 1250.00 area. I based my bidding on that and not on other auctions as I did not know of them

After I saw the sold price I looked some more and found the others. Then the post here led me to more. Today I looked up all I could find and was able to compare all 6 that had sold.

I own a Thorne turntable that is pure heaven to listen too. They also made some of those great large metal records from the 1890's so I knew them.

I find this all fun to do.

Bottom line, if i saw bobs auction today I would have made the effort to get the money together to give it a run to at least $9500 and would have sent it to REA for the fall if I had won

Ok, good to know and thanks for sharing. So even knowing it was 40s you would have bid $10k -well that immediatelly sets a floor. My only point is how much the knowledge of it being 40s would set a ceiling considerably below previous sales of $22/26K (maybe not at all). The previous auctions did not have the luxury of being correctly listed as "Music Boves 40 -70", nor "Fred Z.", nor "Thorn", so that is my point that any previous auction that you saw (that considerably swayed your opinion to believe these are worth far more than $750 to $1250) were bid on by some people who didn't have the real story and may not have had a good idea on what they were buying.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by murphusa

I was a bidder on the item. The listing was under music boxes 1940 to 1970's category

What did you bid? There are only 2 bids over 400, one being the winner the other being Matts.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

What did you bid? There are only 2 bids over 400, one being the winner the other being Matts.

I am curious of Matt's opinion since he seems quite knowledeable of the piece and previous sales, (not to call him out ), but I guess he made his thoughts clear in post #2.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

What did you bid? There are only 2 bids over 400, one being the winner the other being Matts.

I was outbid at 1400 pst

You didn't read what I wrote.

I saw the item, I researched it

I bid $66

It held up for some time.

Never went back to it as it didn't interest me as much as other.

Now knowing more I would have taken a run

Why are you so negative on this win by a good guy, jealous

[vintagesportscollector]

Personally I think this is just a fun discussion...hopefully no one takes it personally. Bob's a great guy and I can't wait to see a pic of the box proudly displayed on his glass shelves (I look forward to adding the pic to his showcase).

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by murphusa

I was outbid at 1400 pst

You didn't read what I wrote.

I saw the item, I researched it

I bid $66

It held up for some time.

Never went back to it as it didn't interest me as much as other.

Now knowing more I would have taken a run

Why are you so negative on this win by a good guy, jealous

So you did all that research and came up with a $66 dollar bid? just seems odd. In another post you say you might have gone to 9000. Quite a jump from 66 bucks.