Is snipe bidding killing the hobby?

perezfan · #1 06-25-2015, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfhofer

Great comments/points! EBay provided (IMHO) the single biggest jolt to the sports memorabilia hobby in the last 30 years. While it may have accelerated the downfall of brick & mortar sport shops and local card shows, it had enough global accessibility to generate a true �market value� for our collectibles � while completely eliminating the middle man in the process.

Does snipe bidding establish a true "market value"? It is a flurry of independent single offers within the last 10 seconds of an auction. While it is almost foolish for a bidder to NOT snipe bid (as pointed out above), the seller is forced to play a game of �Russian roulette�. Now some sports collectibles (vintage cards instantly come to mind) generate enough bids that a seller typically makes out ok. But for vintage sports memorabilia it is a total crapshoot on eBay.

Is it a coincidence the high quality vintage sports memorabilia has dried up on eBay over the last few years? Sure an occasional antique dealer puts up a cool piece, but those are few and far between. It seems that more and more high quality pieces are making their way to a plethora of sports auction sites instead � which has reestablished the middle man that eBay helped eliminate. Has the hobby now come full circle?

Great discussion this morning!!

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

Scott Garner · #2 06-25-2015, 04:17 PM

I tend to agree with many of perezfan Mark's points, however I have found eBay is an excellent place to sell vintage baseball tickets and certain other memorabilia.

I've noted that large catalogue AH's are a crap shoot when it comes to selling vintage baseball tickets. Many times tickets do not realize anywhere near the prices that you can frequently get on eBay. I suspect that this is because of the fact that this is where many of the ticket collectors lurk, FWIW...

cfhofer · #3 06-25-2015, 04:41 PM

That is an excellent point perezfan. Snipe bidding is probably just another example of eBay's persistent pandering to the buyer.

Teamgluck · #4 06-25-2015, 06:32 PM

I got snipped today on a Brooklyn Dodger pennant I really wanted but am ok with it due to a fear of shill bids.

I do wish ebay put on a minute extended bid policy which would reduce sniping/ give me a chance to bid again

sporteq · #5 06-25-2015, 08:34 PM

Should bidders be warned after a series of bids on a item? Say they bid 10 times on a item.. Should ebay system warn them about their bidding activity, then allow them maybe 2 more bids? I can't see why someone needs to bid more than 5 times on a item. Just brainstorming

perezfan · #6 06-25-2015, 09:05 PM

Well... Some may be "fishing" for a reserve amount.

Others may be trying to beat an earlier placed ceiling bid.

Others may not have the patience or discipline to bid late.

And perhaps the remainder are simply unaware of the various sniping services.

Runscott · #7 06-25-2015, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well... Some may be "fishing" for a reserve amount.

Others may be trying to beat an earlier placed ceiling bid.

Others may not have the patience or discipline to bid late.

And perhaps the remainder are simply unaware of the various sniping services.

This makes me think that sniping may be overall GOOD for ebay and for sellers and buyers. If sniping were the required bidding method, it would prevent people from bidding and then retracting their bid once they knew the reserve or the high bid.

bnorth · #8 06-29-2015, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teamgluck

I got snipped today on a Brooklyn Dodger pennant I really wanted but am ok with it due to a fear of shill bids.

I do wish ebay put on a minute extended bid policy which would reduce sniping/ give me a chance to bid again

eBay tried the extended bid policy several years ago and if failed miserably for good reason.

vintagesportscollector · #9 06-29-2015, 04:28 PM

Fair question Travis - but you make it sound so easy...�figure out the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..�. David addressed it well in post #48. I thought $111.11 was my highest and would easily win the item. Given the opportunity to bid another $1, I did. Since we were tied I knew the next increment would/could win it. I only bid the next minimum increment. Would I have gone to $120?...NO. I had the opportunity to get the item for another small increment and I decided to do it. Most people would�even you I bet.

Think of every item you have lost on ebay that you really wanted�.now, think of this�after each time you lost someone tells you you can win it if you pay another $1. Would you say no?? Bullshit � of course you wouldn�t. You would throw in another $1 much of the time, going over �the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..�. If you say you wouldn�t then I think you are lieing to yourself.

It�s all emotions, the thrill of the chase, yada yada yada�it happens to ALL of us.

drcy · #10 06-29-2015, 05:44 PM

Human nature:

Alice: "I just baked thus plate of chocolate chip cookies. Do you want one?"
John: "Thank you, but no. I'm on a diet and am not eating sweets."
Alice: "Are you sure?"
John: "No, but thank you."
Alice: "Just have one. One won't kill your diet."
John: "No. Definitely no. I promised myself I'd stick to my diet."
Alice: "Last chance.
John: "No . . . Okay, but just one."
Alice: "Okay. Here you go. Don't worry, one cookie won't ruin your diet."
John: "Aw what the Hell. Might as well make it two . . . No three."

travrosty · #11 07-01-2015, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagesportscollector

Fair question Travis - but you make it sound so easy...�figure out the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..�. David addressed it well in post #48. I thought $111.11 was my highest and would easily win the item. Given the opportunity to bid another $1, I did. Since we were tied I knew the next increment would/could win it. I only bid the next minimum increment. Would I have gone to $120?...NO. I had the opportunity to get the item for another small increment and I decided to do it. Most people would�even you I bet.

Think of every item you have lost on ebay that you really wanted�.now, think of this�after each time you lost someone tells you you can win it if you pay another $1. Would you say no?? Bullshit � of course you wouldn�t. You would throw in another $1 much of the time, going over �the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..�. If you say you wouldn�t then I think you are lieing to yourself.

It�s all emotions, the thrill of the chase, yada yada yada�it happens to ALL of us.

it is easy, you are making it way too hard. when you make your initial bid, think about the max you are willing to pay, then think about what would happen if someone else wins it for 1 dollar more, and how you would have been willing to pay another 1 dollar more than that. Then you have NOT thought about your max bid, think about this process happening over and over and over again, and think about the highest, most ridiculous price being bid for this card, to the point where you say "that's enough, i just wont pay 1 more penny"

Then, and ONLY then, have you come to your max bid in your own mind. put that price down at the beginning of the auction and you don't have to worry about anything. There is always someone that might bid another dollar, it doesnt mean HIS max bid was only 1 dollar more than yours, you dont know how much more he might have ridiculously bid in order to win the item. I think people have regrets when they see that someone else got the item for only 1 dollar more than their max bid, but in reality the other guys max bid might have been way higher than yours.

So you don't have to sweat it, just think about the amount you would be willing to pay and not 1 penny more even if someone had a gun to your head, so to speak. It IS that easy, It's not hard.

yankeeno7 · #12 06-25-2015, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

This. +1

drcy · #13 06-25-2015, 09:28 PM

Sniping is why sellers began ending auctions early to accept offers. Whether or not one thinks it's ethical, if a $500 item is stuck at a 99 cent bid on day five, many sellers will start entertaining reasonable offers. This is particularly true when they were previously burned by auctions where snipe bid never materialized in the last two seconds and the items sold for cheap.

I put up a somewhat valuable item item for 99 cents on eBay with $5 shipping. It sold for $15. The shipping was $17.50. I wasn't about to end the auction once there was a bid and the winner had bought valuable items from me before so I'm not complaining and I'm happy for his business, but this is why I rarely do auctions on eBay and have no intention to in the near future. It's all BINs for me with no apologies.

Do I think sniping in part messed up eBay auctions and contributed to the scarcity of auctions and the abundance of BINs? Yes, I do. I believe it very firmly. Do I think sniping was a reasonable reaction to shill bidding and eBay protecting shill bidders? Yes. Something can be messed by multiple forces. Though I do know if sellers thought they'd get fair prices via eBay auctions there would be more auctions and fewer BINs. Most sellers would be much prefer to have their items sold at fair prices in a week, rather than sit around as BINs.

rats60 · #14 06-25-2015, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

Ebay + Paypal is 11%. What auction house charges less than that? The ones I've seen are charging 18-20%. The only advantage that I see with them is that your item sells for more. No sniping plus bidders that don't use ebay.

drcy · #15 06-25-2015, 10:39 PM

"The only advantage that I see with them is that your item sells for more."

That's known a big advantage.

One problem with the scarcity of auctions on eBay, and the scarcity of quality items auction on eBay, is fewer collectors look for eBay auctions. A seller may not put up a nice item sd auction on eBay out of fear collectors won't look for or see it amongst the sea of BINs. In the old days when BINs were few to none, eBay was the place for auctions and people came to bid.

David Atkatz · #16 06-26-2015, 12:38 AM

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

travrosty · #17 06-26-2015, 12:44 AM

others snipe knowing they cant enter another bid, like you, so they are like you and entering their max snipe. if you enter the max bid right at the end or the beginning , you will win it or not depending on whether someone wanted it more than you or not.

Scott Garner · #18 06-26-2015, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

+1

cfhofer · #19 06-26-2015, 08:20 AM

You are spot on Drcy!

Let's be honest...we don't snipe bid to just avoid "shill" bids. We snipe bid to avoid "ANY" competing bid, even legitimate ones. It is exploitation of a flaw in eBay's auction system. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is the only auction house in history to function this way.

The purpose of an auction is to sell an item at fair market value. How does a flurry of snipe bids in the final 10 seconds determine fair market value? Now there are some items, say a 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan PSA 7, that the market value is pretty well established. But how much should someone pay for an 1894 Varsity Yale Football Pach Bros photo? Our hobby needs the back-and-forth of bids to determine that. That is healthy for our hobby.

Leon · #20 06-26-2015, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfhofer

You are spot on Drcy!

Let's be honest...we don't snipe bid to just avoid "shill" bids. We snipe bid to avoid "ANY" competing bid, even legitimate ones. It is exploitation of a flaw in eBay's auction system. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is the only auction house in history to function this way.

The purpose of an auction is to sell an item at fair market value. How does a flurry of snipe bids in the final 10 seconds determine fair market value? Now there are some items, say a 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan PSA 7, that the market value is pretty well established. But how much should someone pay for an 1894 Varsity Yale Football Pach Bros photo? Our hobby needs the back-and-forth of bids to determine that. That is healthy for our hobby.

Heritage Auctions owns Gavelsnipe.com and you can bid/snipe (maybe) in Heritage from their sniping service.

And, to me, the flurry of snipe bids is true market. (unless they are shills). I only put in snipes ( I snipe 98% of the time, the other 2% I want the adrenaline rush) when I want something, and absent fraud, others do the same thing. How can that not be true market? In reality no auction in the world has 100% of interested buyers in their auction. I bid in a ton of auctions, ebay and otherwise....and help run a small auction company, so have my own views..... Fun debate.....

doug.goodman · #21 06-29-2015, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

There it is, in a nutshell.

If you don't want to be "sniped" then bid a higher amount. Easy.

drcy · #22 06-29-2015, 03:51 AM

As noted, many bidders who lose an auction by a last second bid would have placed a higher bid if given a second chance. If bids were placed earlier, they would have had the second chance, but with snipe bids they have no second chance. This explains why snipe bids can and do lower prices.

If someone places a snipe bid of $200 and it's won by someone else at $205, he may say "Aw shoot, I wanted that. I would have paid $210 for that. I may have even paid $220. I wish I could go back and raise my max bid." If there were no snipe bids, but the $205 (or higher) bid by his opponent placed a day before the auction's or even 10 minutes before the end, he has the chance to say "Aw shoot, I want this so I'm going to raise my bid to $220." That's exactly how snipe bids can and do result in lower prices. And that's exactly why auction houses have 10 or fifteen minute rules. No major auction house has a fixed ending time with snipe bidding-- because they know many bidders will raise their previous max bids if given 10 or fifteen minutes to reconsider, and they know their 10 or 15 minute chance to reconsider system results in higher final prices.

In a 7 day auction, a bidder may have a set-in-stone, unwavering mind, "that's what's in my budget" $1,000 max bid for 6 days 23 hours and 55 minutes, but when he sees the bid go to $1,010 with five minutes left he may say "Aw what the hell, I'll go to $1,100." If the $1,100 bid isn't high enough and there's two minutes left he may say "Okay, I'll bid $1,250, but no higher." If the two bidders had place snipe bids, the auction would have ended at $1,010.

murphusa · #23 06-29-2015, 10:10 AM

well it can't be killing the hobby, look at how many collectors are using it.

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