Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

ergoism · #1 07-07-2015, 11:34 AM

Stain removal from cards seems like such a gray area. If you showed me a nice 52 Mantle at auction then showed me an earlier picture of the card that showed tape stains, I'd still have the same level of interest in the card. However, if I saw a picture of the card and saw that it was recolored, re-backed, or had corners or edges rebuilt, then I'd have a problem as it would then be someone else's creation.

If it was a chemical process that could lead to long term damage of the card, I'd be worried. But from what I understand, the process isn't harmful to cards. If someone wants to take the Mantle in this PWCC listing and remove the stains then sell me the card a few grades higher, I truly wouldn't mind.

I understand everyone has their own opinions on this and some view it as taboo since there is no disclosure in most cases. I'm a big fan of 80s Fleer basketball cards. If I open a wax box and decide to grade a few stickers, before I sell do I need to let someone know that these cards came with wax stuck on them and I had to take it off with panty hose?

SCD did a very informative interview with stain remover Dick Towle that sheds some light on the process. It's worth a read: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...res/nerattowle

Peter_Spaeth · #2 07-07-2015, 11:40 AM

So fading the colors is not harming the card?

benchod · #3 07-07-2015, 11:46 AM

Faded colors and a chemical smell that is distinctive

Peter_Spaeth · #4 07-07-2015, 11:50 AM

If water took out caramel stains, bleached Cracker Jacks would not be such an issue.

DeanH3 · #5 07-07-2015, 11:51 AM

I read that article years ago but it's great to read it again. To me the biggest problem I have is the non disclosure. If it's not seen as an overall negative, then why don't these prominent dealers say upfront why has been done to their cards? Well we all know the answer to that....M-O-N-E-Y! I might still be ok with buying a card that has had something removed. I just want to know upfront and let me decide.

bosoxphan · #6 07-07-2015, 12:17 PM

Im surprised we havent had a restored classification in the hobby yet, much like what has happened with comic books

Peter_Spaeth · #7 07-07-2015, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosoxphan

Im surprised we havent had a restored classification in the hobby yet, much like what has happened with comic books

We do -- "Authentic."

ergoism · #8 07-07-2015, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We do -- "Authentic."

With comics, they grade the books with a numerical grade, the flip is a different color, and it is designated as restored. The restored versions obviously don't command the same prices as their natural counterparts but it adds another dimension to the hobby. I would imagine the card industry would benefit from it as well.

I'm not sure how it would apply to stain removal if it is indeed undetectable but an intriguing topic nonetheless.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 07-07-2015, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ergoism

With comics, they grade the books with a numerical grade, the flip is a different color, and it is designated as restored. The restored versions obviously don't command the same prices as their natural counterparts but it adds another dimension to the hobby. I would imagine the card industry would benefit from it as well.

I'm not sure how it would apply to stain removal if it is indeed undetectable but an intriguing topic nonetheless.

As long as card doctors can make tons of money by getting altered cards into holders without disclosure, I don't see much hope for a restored segment.

ls7plus · #10 07-07-2015, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosoxphan

Im surprised we haven't had a restored classification in the hobby yet, much like what has happened with comic books

I think that eventually the TPG's will go to such a designation, rather than "altered." With cards which are truly rare and significant, I don't believe a restored card, with the matter disclosed and transparent, will be viewed very negatively (I am probably somewhat biased, as I have at least one potential candidate--a '29 Kashin R316 Mel Ott rookie, which is exceptionally well-centered for the card, but with the lower right corner missing and some damage to the lower right side of the card above that. Was consequently graded SGC poor, of course).

Best to all,

Larry

DICKTOWLE · #11 07-08-2015, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ergoism

stain removal from cards seems like such a gray area. If you showed me a nice 52 mantle at auction then showed me an earlier picture of the card that showed tape stains, i'd still have the same level of interest in the card. However, if i saw a picture of the card and saw that it was recolored, re-backed, or had corners or edges rebuilt, then i'd have a problem as it would then be someone else's creation.

If it was a chemical process that could lead to long term damage of the card, i'd be worried. But from what i understand, the process isn't harmful to cards. If someone wants to take the mantle in this pwcc listing and remove the stains then sell me the card a few grades higher, i truly wouldn't mind.

I understand everyone has their own opinions on this and some view it as taboo since there is no disclosure in most cases. I'm a big fan of 80s fleer basketball cards. If i open a wax box and decide to grade a few stickers, before i sell do i need to let someone know that these cards came with wax stuck on them and i had to take it off with panty hose?

Scd did a very informative interview with stain remover dick towle that sheds some light on the process. It's worth a read: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...res/nerattowle

for 22 years many people are pleased with all the work that was done to cards. There are some people that drive around cars with dents and say the car is great, there are people that get the dent out.this is a choice people have like cards- if a water stain can be removed and the card is a 5 before and now gets 8 well--again gonewiththestain.com says it all. Our family enjoys the work and the great people who i work for. Thank you a god bless

MetsBaseball1973 · #12 07-08-2015, 11:49 AM

No expert but just taking a hard look at the pictures provided. That Wagner 6 does not have the same top border width as the Wagner 9, to my eye. The top border widths look different. It's also worth noting that multiple cards can have the same print dot.

Also, there is a small black dot to the left of the 9 Cobb's head that is not present on the 6 pictured.

Doubtless stain removal happens and gives cards a telltale washed-out look, but it doesn't look to my eyes at least like the cards pictured here are the same, given the Wagner border width and the PD in the Cobb being only on the 9.

Peter_Spaeth · #13 07-08-2015, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

for 22 years many people are pleased with all the work that was done to cards. There are some people that drive around cars with dents and say the car is great, there are people that get the dent out.this is a choice people have like cards- if a water stain can be removed and the card is a 5 before and now gets 8 well--again gonewiththestain.com says it all. Our family enjoys the work and the great people who i work for. Thank you a god bless

I would be pleased too, if altering a card with solvents and whatever else you do enabled me to get it past a grading service and make a nice profit when I sell it without disclosure. Do you think by chance any of your clients are doing that, Dick?

Peter_Spaeth · #14 07-08-2015, 12:46 PM

Ah yes I just remembered Dick has acknowledged that one of his "services" is wrinkle removal. Lovely.

#13 Report Post Old 03-24-2014, 05:17 PM
DICKTOWLE DICKTOWLE is offline
member Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 94

Default Gone with the stain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to make it clear that I don't remove autographs on baseballs, however I now remove wrinkles on cards and faces, if I can help someone, and you know who you are, please contact us

vintagetoppsguy · #15 07-08-2015, 01:03 PM

I don't have a problem with Dick's service as long as there are no long term effects and that it can't be detected in any way by myself or any other card expert (i.e. TPGs).

I disagree that stain removal is 'altering' a card. If I spill wine on my carpet and hire a professional cleaning service to remove the stain, is that altering the carpet, or is it removing something that shouldn't have been there in the first place?

I know my opinion may be in the minority, but so be it.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 07-08-2015, 01:05 PM

So if you're REALLY good at card doctoring and it can't be detected, at least in the cursory review TPGs give, that isn't card doctoring. Oh that's great David. Very cogent. Whatever.

And your carpet example is completely irrelevant and you know it.

vintagetoppsguy · #17 07-08-2015, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if you're REALLY good at card doctoring and it can't be detected, at least in the cursory review TPGs give, hat isn't card doctoring. Oh that's great David. Very cogent. Whatever.

And your carpet example is completely irrelevant and you know it.

I disagree that soaking a card to remove a stain is 'doctoring'. There is another thread on the main page about scrap book soaking. Do you consider that 'doctoring' too?

Peter_Spaeth · #18 07-08-2015, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I disagree that soaking a card to remove a stain is 'doctoring'. There is another thread on the main page about scrap book soaking. Do you consider that 'doctoring' too?

Soaking something out of a scrapbook with water is fine with me. Getting out stains with solvents or taking out wrinkles is not.

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