Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I disagree that soaking a card to remove a stain is 'doctoring'. There is another thread on the main page about scrap book soaking. Do you consider that 'doctoring' too?

Soaking something out of a scrapbook with water is fine with me. Getting out stains with solvents or taking out wrinkles is not.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Soaking something out of a scrapbook with water is fine with me. Getting out stains with solvents or taking out wrinkles is not.

In the scrapbook thread, he soaked the cards in more than water. He used Bestine (a solvent). Unfortunately, it didn't work for him as you can see by the results. But, if it had worked for him, would you be as vocal in that thread?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

In the scrapbook thread, he soaked the cards in more than water. He used Bestine (a solvent). Unfortunately, it didn't work for him as you can see by the results. But, if it had worked for him, would you be as vocal in that thread?

It depends on what he did with the cards. If he sold them without disclosure, perhaps. If he kept them for his collection, no.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Soaking something out of a scrapbook with water is fine with me. Getting out stains with solvents or taking out wrinkles is not.

Isn't water a solvent?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Isn't water a solvent?

Not as I think of the term, no. Not a chemical solvent, anyhow. I believe it is generally accepted that water does not affect the integrity of the surface. I don't believe that is the case for chemical solvents. And I am virtually certain that if you told a TPG that you had used a chemical solvent, that would be considered an unacceptable alteration.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not as I think of the term, no. Not a chemical solvent, anyhow.

I guess I just don't see the difference. If I have a card with a stain and I soak it to remove the stain, what difference does it make what I used (water or chemical solvent), as long as no one can tell and there are no long term effects? Whether it was water or a chemical solvent, isn't the result still the same? So, what does it matter what was used?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I guess I just don't see the difference. If I have a card with a stain and I soak it to remove the stain, what difference does it make what I used (water or chemical solvent), as long as no one can tell and there are no long term effects? Whether it was water or a chemical solvent, isn't the result still the same? So, what does it matter what was used?

So why do the TPGs say you can't do it? Probably because it is not established that the solvents don't do damage. Indeed look at the faded colors on the E93s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

By your logic it's OK to take out a major crease if you can't tell. I guess I just don't feel the same way. And neither do the TPGs. It's deception, and someone who does it for clients who then submit the cards without disclosure is enabling fraud.

PS I bet if you used sophisticated enough equipment you could tell that solvents had been used.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By your logic it's OK to take out a major crease if you can't tell.

Quite different. Removing a crease is altering the paper stock of the card. If removing a stain doesn't effect the card in any way, then the paper stock has not been altered.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So why do the TPGs say you can't do it? Probably because it is not established that the solvents don't do damage. Indeed look at the faded colors on the E93s.

Which TPG's say you can't do it? That is a common misconception. They don't say you can't do it, they say there can be no evidence of it. Quite a difference.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Which TPG's say you can't do it? That is a common misconception. They don't say you can't do it, they say there can be no evidence of it. Quite a difference.

I completely disagree with the conclusion you draw from that wording. Do you REALLY think a TPG's position is that it blesses really good card doctoring? IMO there is no way Dave Forman or Joe Orlando would say that.