Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

benjulmag · #1 07-08-2015, 04:16 PM

The logical extension of the argument that it is okay to alter cards if the alteration is undetectable is that it would also be okay to CREATE a card if the creation is undetectable. So if hypothetically the original printing plate of the T206 Wagner is someday found, and if I can find period paper and period dyes that forensically test and look identical how a "real" Wagner would test and look, it is okay that I just created a $3 million plus card?

So let's say this happens and it gets slabbed a 9. The overjoyed buyer, having no knowledge of what happened (because after all I am the only person who knows what went on), would be totally cool if I should later divulge what happened? Don't you think anyone in that position would be outraged, feeling he/she had been defrauded and that such a thing should not be allowed to take place in the hobby?

vintagetoppsguy · #2 07-08-2015, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

The logical extension of the argument that it is okay to alter cards...

I didn't quote your enitre post because we can stop right there. That is where we disagree. To me, soaking a card is not altering it. If you think it is, you need to go look up the word alter in the dictionary. After that, if you still think soaking a card is a form of alteration, then we'll just have to disagree.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 07-08-2015, 04:49 PM

David, do you disagree with Steve B. that even soaking in water is detectable (as I understood him) if one looks hard enough with good enough equipment?

benjulmag · #4 07-08-2015, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I didn't quote your enitre post because we can stop right there. That is where we disagree. To me, soaking a card is not altering it. If you think it is, you need to go look up the word alter in the dictionary. After that, if you still think soaking a card is a form of alteration, then we'll just have to disagree.

Do you remove creases/wrinkles, yes or no?

Do you remove stains with chemical solvents that change the physical composition of the card compared to when first issued, yes or no?

If the answer to either of these questions is yes, IMO you are altering a card. And if the hobby feels it is okay to sell such "altered" cards without disclosure, knowing it will not be detected by TPG, then we can assume the practice will become widespread. The end result will be a substantial increase in the pop reports of higher-graded cards, resulting in a significant price reduction.

vintagetoppsguy · #5 07-08-2015, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Do you remove creases/wrinkles, yes or no?

No. I consider that an alteration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Do you remove stains with chemical solvents that change the physical composition of the card compared to when first issued, yes or no?

No. I don't belive I've ever soaked a card in anything other than water. However, I am not opposed to soaking cards in chemicals if they do not change the composition of the card - the look (washed out colors), the feel, the smell, etc. If anything changes the look, feel or smell of the card, then that is an alteration in my opinion.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 07-08-2015, 05:13 PM

So which chemicals, in your opinion, do not change anything about a card?

vintagetoppsguy · #7 07-08-2015, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So which chemicals, in your opinion, do not change anything about a card?

Peter, I don't know enough about checmicals to answer that.

But if there is a chemical(s) that can remove a stain and NEVER be detected, I don't have any problem with it - again as long as it doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

And your analogy above is silly. You can't be responsible 'creating the potential for a deceptive transaction to occur' when you can't control what happens after the sale.

That's like saying wax vendors shouldn't sell wax packs/boxes because somewhere down the road those packs could possibly be opened, searched and resealed.

bnorth · #8 07-08-2015, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I don't know enough about checmicals to answer that.

But if there is a chemical(s) that can remove a stain and NEVER be detected, I don't have any problem with it - again as long as it doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

And your analogy above is silly. You can't be responsible 'creating the potential for a deceptive transaction to occur' when you can't control what happens after the sale.

That's like saying wax vendors shouldn't sell wax packs/boxes because somewhere down the road those packs could possibly be opened, searched and resealed.

Lol, How can anything clean it without changing the look? The 58 Aaron card I pictured has no chemical residue would it be ok to sell if graded?

Peter_Spaeth · #9 07-08-2015, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I don't know enough about checmicals to answer that.

But if there is a chemical(s) that can remove a stain and NEVER be detected, I don't have any problem with it - again as long as it doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

And your analogy above is silly. You can't be responsible 'creating the potential for a deceptive transaction to occur' when you can't control what happens after the sale.

That's like saying wax vendors shouldn't sell wax packs/boxes because somewhere down the road those packs could possibly be opened, searched and resealed.

So David at the end of all this back and forth we pretty much are where we started, with me saying I thought water soaking was OK, and you now saying water soaking is the only thing you know of that is OK. What did we just have a two hour debate for?

Peter_Spaeth · #10 07-08-2015, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I don't know enough about checmicals to answer that.

But if there is a chemical(s) that can remove a stain and NEVER be detected, I don't have any problem with it - again as long as it doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

And your analogy above is silly. You can't be responsible 'creating the potential for a deceptive transaction to occur' when you can't control what happens after the sale.

That's like saying wax vendors shouldn't sell wax packs/boxes because somewhere down the road those packs could possibly be opened, searched and resealed.

I don't buy that analogy at all. By your logic I could without any ethical issue sell a gun to Jesse Holmes or Adam Lanza strongly suspecting what his plans were, because I have no control over it. Or maybe you believe that I could?

barrysloate · #11 07-08-2015, 05:42 PM

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: 99+ % of the people who use the services of someone like Mr. Towle do so for one reason and one reason only- to resubmit the card to TPG in order to get a higher than merited grade. And this in turn makes them lots of money. Which leads me to what I always say about TPG's- that they mint money. It's like having a printing press and making hundred dollar bills with it. TPG's have too much power, period.

Second, it is in the interests of all businesses to have satisfied customers. And one way to do that is to make sure customers are happy with the grades they are getting. As a result, there is a distressing number of high grade cards in holders that have been altered, cleaned, or processed in some way. This is a very bad sign for the future of the hobby.

benjulmag · #12 07-08-2015, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

............No. I don't belive I've ever soaked a card in anything other than water. However, I am not opposed to soaking cards in chemicals if they do not change the composition of the card - the look (washed out colors), the feel, the smell, etc. If anything changes the look, feel or smell of the card, then that is an alteration in my opinion.

Putting aside the question whether a chemical that does not change the look, feel or smell is an alteration, it none of those things are taking place, then why on earth is someone willing to pay somebody to apply to apply such a chemical?

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