Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

barrysloate · #1 07-08-2015, 05:42 PM

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: 99+ % of the people who use the services of someone like Mr. Towle do so for one reason and one reason only- to resubmit the card to TPG in order to get a higher than merited grade. And this in turn makes them lots of money. Which leads me to what I always say about TPG's- that they mint money. It's like having a printing press and making hundred dollar bills with it. TPG's have too much power, period.

Second, it is in the interests of all businesses to have satisfied customers. And one way to do that is to make sure customers are happy with the grades they are getting. As a result, there is a distressing number of high grade cards in holders that have been altered, cleaned, or processed in some way. This is a very bad sign for the future of the hobby.

CMIZ5290 · #2 07-08-2015, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: 99+ % of the people who use the services of someone like Mr. Towle do so for one reason and one reason only- to resubmit the card to TPG in order to get a higher than merited grade. And this in turn makes them lots of money. Which leads me to what I always say about TPG's- that they mint money. It's like having a printing press and making hundred dollar bills with it. TPG's have too much power, period.

Second, it is in the interests of all businesses to have satisfied customers. And one way to do that is to make sure customers are happy with the grades they are getting. As a result, there is a distressing number of high grade cards in holders that have been altered, cleaned, or processed in some way. This is a very bad sign for the future of the hobby.

+1, agree with Barry. I have always been confused about "soaking cards". Doesnt that compromise the structure of the card? To me, it would take huge balls to do this in the first place...

Peter_Spaeth · #3 07-08-2015, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

+1, agree with Barry. I have always been confused about "soaking cards". Doesnt that compromise the structure of the card? To me, it would take huge balls to do this in the first place...

I will defer to Steve B. here, but certainly I had thought there was close to a consensus that just soaking in water doesn't compromise the card in any meaningful way.

CMIZ5290 · #4 07-08-2015, 06:10 PM

Thanks Peter, this is just a very confusing task to understand. If you have a high profile T206 graded psa 5 with some stains, what exactly is the process? thanks...Kevin

Peter_Spaeth · #5 07-08-2015, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Thanks Peter, this is just a very confusing task to understand. If you have a high profile T206 graded psa 5 with some stains, what exactly is the process? thanks...Kevin

Search me. Maybe Dick can help you.

CMIZ5290 · #6 07-08-2015, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Search me. Maybe Dick can help you.

I did not mean that Peter, I was simply asking what the process was for someone doing this....This is all new to me, even with 25 years in the hobby....I simply don't know...

Peter_Spaeth · #7 07-08-2015, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I did not mean that Peter, I was simply asking what the process was for someone doing this....This is all new to me, even with 25 years in the hobby....I simply don't know...

Kevin I was just being sarcastic. I really don't know how it's done, but there are a lot of soakers on the Board who likely can explain.

bnorth · #8 07-08-2015, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Thanks Peter, this is just a very confusing task to understand. If you have a high profile T206 graded psa 5 with some stains, what exactly is the process? thanks...Kevin

I highly doubt any card doctor will come on here and give you directions on how exactly to alter your card.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 07-08-2015, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt any card doctor will come on here and give you directions on how exactly to alter your card.

One just came on the board today and defended the integrity of his family business, so ya never know. But seriously I think a lot of guys soak and feel it's OK so they might well explain how they go about it.

bnorth · #10 07-08-2015, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One just came on the board today and defended the integrity of his family business, so ya never know. But seriously I think a lot of guys soak and feel it's OK so they might well explain how they go about it.

There are several threads already that explain in detail how to soak a card. I doubt DT is going to be giving away his family secrets on altering cards any time soon.

Stonepony · #11 07-08-2015, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I will defer to Steve B. here, but certainly I had thought there was close to a consensus that just soaking in water doesn't compromise the card in any meaningful way.

Of course it alters the integrity of the card stock. That's why all recommendations for soaking include pressing the soaked cards under a huge stack of books as part of the process. This removes the warping and wrinkles.... which sounds like "altering" under some people definition

CMIZ5290 · #12 07-08-2015, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stonepony

Of course it alters the integrity of the card stock. That's why all recommendations for soaking include pressing the soaked cards under a huge stack of books as part of the process. This removes the warping and wrinkles.... which sounds like "altering" under some people definition

Yea....this takes bigger balls than I have...

1880nonsports · #13 07-08-2015, 06:26 PM

without accepting the practice of soaking them in water (what I'm comfortable with in terms of application and what I believe the majority accepts at least up to this point) likely more than 75% of the cards in the marketplace would have to be entombed adhered to tobacco album pages (and scrapbooks) and would result in a defacto inability to see anything on their backs. The percentage obviously smaller in most T sets but that's a lot of cards!

vintagetoppsguy · #14 07-08-2015, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: 99+ % of the people who use the services of someone like Mr. Towle do so for one reason and one reason only- to resubmit the card to TPG in order to get a higher than merited grade.

That's silly! There have been gum and wax removing solutions long before TPGs even came into existence. What was the motivation before the TPGs?

TPGs could all go out of business tomorrow and I highly doubt Dick's business would skip a beat.

Peter_Spaeth · #15 07-08-2015, 06:57 PM

I would bet if Dick supplied his client list it would confirm what Barry said.

And if there were no TPGs the motivation would be the same -- to get more money for altered cards.

barrysloate · #16 07-08-2015, 07:00 PM

Gum and wax removal is minimal David. I'm talking about any process that will add grading points to a card. That's a whole different thing. There are people who build corners, who glue the fronts and backs of two different cards together and then submit them and get high numerical grades. Some of these alterations are caught by the graders, but many of them are missed too. That would concern me greatly if I were buying expensive high grade cards ( I don't).

ejharrington · #17 07-08-2015, 08:49 PM

Getting back to the original post, the poster claims he has information that he does not want to share. I see no conclusive evidence. Who's to say this guy doesn't want to buy the card himself and is just trying to dampen bidding? I wonder if he can be sued by the consignor if the bidding suddenly dries up?

ctownboy · #18 07-08-2015, 09:10 PM

ejharrington,

I believe the person who started this thread is an attorney. I also believe, if what he says is true, that he would WELCOME a lawsuit. That way, the person or people who own the cards that he is saying have been doctored will have to prove they haven't been doctored.

David

ejharrington · #19 07-08-2015, 09:18 PM

I'm not a lawyer but I think the poster has to prove the cards are doctored...not the other way around. I don't know how the owner would prove a negative.

calvindog · #20 07-08-2015, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Getting back to the original post, the poster won't give his name but claims he has information that he does not want to share. I see no conclusive evidence. Who's to say this guy doesn't want to buy the card himself and is just trying to dampen bidding? I wonder if he can be sued by the consignor if the bidding suddenly dries up?

I refuse to give my name. And how on earth did you figure out my true motive? You damn pesky kids!

ejharrington · #21 07-08-2015, 09:29 PM

I didn't claim any motives; I just asked the questions.

Rob D. · #22 07-08-2015, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I refuse to give my name. And how on earth did you figure out my true motive? You damn pesky kids!

I know you ... you're J3ff L!(h+m@n.

Sean · #23 07-08-2015, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Getting back to the original post, the poster won't give his name but claims he has information that he does not want to share. I see no conclusive evidence. Who's to say this guy doesn't want to buy the card himself and is just trying to dampen bidding? I wonder if he can be sued by the consignor if the bidding suddenly dries up?

I must say Jeff, you took that a lot more calmly than I would have.

And how do people keep missing your name in your posts?

benchod · #24 07-08-2015, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

I must say Jeff, you took that a lot more calmly than I would have.

And how do people keep missing your name in your posts?

Kid gloves

Peter_Spaeth · #25 07-08-2015, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Getting back to the original post, the poster won't give his name but claims he has information that he does not want to share. I see no conclusive evidence. Who's to say this guy doesn't want to buy the card himself and is just trying to dampen bidding? I wonder if he can be sued by the consignor if the bidding suddenly dries up?

The old Hal Lewis playbook.

Peter_Spaeth · #26 07-08-2015, 10:17 PM

I love when nonlawyers make pronouncements about the law. Is our resident class action expert Kevin Quinn still out there?

Kenny Cole · #27 07-08-2015, 10:32 PM

As a Plaintiff lawyer, I think it would be awesome if in a civil case the defendant had the burden of persuasion to disprove the plaintiff's allegations. That would make my job exponentially easier. On the criminal side, those pesky constitutional considerations cause me to grudgingly say that I guess the status quo should be maintained and that the prosecution has to still be able to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

ejharrington · #28 07-09-2015, 07:22 AM

No one has addressed my original questions. I've seem enough scumbaggery within this hobby to not put it above somebody to drive down bidding with unfounded allegations. I have no dog in the fight and don't know anyone in the hobby. I find the timing of the post interesting; the auction has been open for weeks and the post occurs two days before it is due to end. Why wait if you have evidence or inside information? People have bid been tens of thousands of dollars on the cards that they may have not have bid on if this allegation was made earlier. Why does the title of the post have a ? at the end if he is sure? How could PSA miss a rebuilt corner on the Cobb? I think these are all legitimate questions.

ullmandds · #29 07-08-2015, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: 99+ % of the people who use the services of someone like Mr. Towle do so for one reason and one reason only- to resubmit the card to TPG in order to get a higher than merited grade. And this in turn makes them lots of money. Which leads me to what I always say about TPG's- that they mint money. It's like having a printing press and making hundred dollar bills with it. TPG's have too much power, period.

Second, it is in the interests of all businesses to have satisfied customers. And one way to do that is to make sure customers are happy with the grades they are getting. As a result, there is a distressing number of high grade cards in holders that have been altered, cleaned, or processed in some way. This is a very bad sign for the future of the hobby.

Exactly what Barry said.

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