Card Doctor haters please respond

ksabet · #1 07-09-2015, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The reason that restoration on coins and cards is frowned upon is that the value of each is very much dependent on its grade. Compare a vintage baseball card in Good to Very Good condition to the same one in NR MT to MT condition. The difference might be a hundred fold. As such, collectors demand that whatever grade a coin or card receives is the real thing.

That wouldn't apply to a painting. If a restorer touched up a Picasso, I doubt it would affect the price very much. If major work was done, then it probably would have more of an effect. But baseball cards and coins are very condition sensitive.

I agree with this but the part where I am confused is why?

If you have two identical cards and both are slabbed PSA 8 why would it matter if one was "touched up" and the other one wasnt?

We love "eye appeal" but then if someone removes a gum stain from 1963 Topps Berra "eye appeal" is thrown out the window and the card is demonized.

If TPGs are defining our love or hate for cards that are doctored then should we flip our stance to buy the holder not the card?

barrysloate · #2 07-09-2015, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksabet

I agree with this but the part where I am confused is why?

If you have two identical cards and both are slabbed PSA 8 why would it matter if one was "touched up" and the other one wasnt?

We love "eye appeal" but then if someone removes a gum stain from 1963 Topps Berra "eye appeal" is thrown out the window and the card is demonized.

If TPGs are defining our love or hate for cards that are doctored then should we flip our stance to buy the holder not the card?

Different collectors will have different opinions about this. I think most would want an original card rather than a touched up one, but collecting is subjective. Maybe it's time to take a poll.

Enfuego · #3 07-09-2015, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Different collectors will have different opinions about this. I think most would want an original card rather than a touched up one, but collecting is subjective. Maybe it's time to take a poll.

Agreed!

chipperhank44 · #4 07-09-2015, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksabet

I agree with this but the part where I am confused is why?

If you have two identical cards and both are slabbed PSA 8 why would it matter if one was "touched up" and the other one wasnt?

We love "eye appeal" but then if someone removes a gum stain from 1963 Topps Berra "eye appeal" is thrown out the window and the card is demonized.

If TPGs are defining our love or hate for cards that are doctored then should we flip our stance to buy the holder not the card?

Regarding high grade vintage cards, the "why" is simple economics: Supply affects the market.

If I have a PSA 8 card that is unaltered and top pop, then a guy trim and bleaches a card that gets a PSA 9, the restoration directly affected my resale value. Owners of high grade vintage cards have a vested interest in preventing artificially enhanced cards from equaling or eclipsing unrestored examples.

steve B · #5 07-09-2015, 01:12 PM

Restoration is frowned on for stamps too. It happens on occasion if something is rare enough and in truly horrible condition. But the certs take a while to get, and they nearly always catch and mention repairs. One of the companies had a display at the 2006 international show in DC that was entirely repaired and faked items. I couldn't spot the work done on probably 85% of the stuff shown.

I think that fields where restoration is allowed it has a lot to do with preservation and display. I have some old newspapers that are pretty much disintegrating. If they had any real value either historically or as displays I'd have them deacidified and stabilized. If that work is done right it helps the item survive and is reversible.

Art, cars, furniture, movie posters, all have a good deal of practical/display value. And restoration makes them useful for that for a good long time.

Cards as much as we display them aren't usually in the same sort of category as larger art. So the focus is on originality.

drcy · #6 07-09-2015, 01:51 PM

Sentiments are sentiments.

But with a painting there is only one in existence and by design it's meant for display on the wall. A movie poster may not be unique, but it is also intended for display. I think display value is the number one reason whey it's more accepted.

Also, a painting is made up of a lot of materials that may deteriorate or change color with time. The varnish on old oil paintings turns brown and restoration often involves removing the brown varnish to reveal the original colors.

Also, irrelevant to desirability or acceptability, in all areas you have to disclose at sale when an item has been restored. My brother in law collected movie posters and, while he saw nothing unethical about restoration, he did say it effected value and you had to disclose any restoration. He said a Vg poster restored to Mint was worth more than a Vg poster, but worth less than a naturally Mint poster-- so you would get in trouble in the hobby if you didn't disclose restoration.

There's nothing illegal about trimming or recoloring a baseball card. It's knowingly not disclosing what was done at sale that is illegal. And, similar to movie posters, many altered baseball cards do have value.

btcarfagno · #7 07-09-2015, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

Sentiments are sentiments.

But with a painting there is only one in existence and by design it's meant for display on the wall. A movie poster may not be unique, but it is also intended for display. I think display value is the number one reason whey it's more accepted.

Also, a painting is made up of a lot of materials that may deteriorate or change color with time. The varnish on old oil paintings turns brown and restoration often involves removing the brown varnish to reveal the original colors.

Also, irrelevant to desirability or acceptability, in all areas you have to disclose at sale when an item has been restored. My brother in law collected movie posters and, while he saw nothing unethical about restoration, he did say it effected value and you had to disclose any restoration. He said a Vg poster restored to Mint was worth more than a Vg poster, but worth less than a naturally Mint poster-- so you would get in trouble in the hobby if you didn't disclose restoration.

There's nothing illegal about trimming or recoloring a baseball card. It's knowingly not disclosing what was done at sale that is illegal. And, similar to movie posters, many altered baseball cards do have value.

Understood. I was more responding to Barry regarding his statement that cards and coins value is based on condition, therefore restoration is frowned upon. That is not the case with movie posters.

You are correct that posters have display value, and thus the value of a restored poster would go up because it is more aesthetically pleasing. And your brother in law is absolutely correct regarding value and auction houses disclosing not just that a piece has been restored, but what restoration was done and what the condition of the piece was originally before restoration.

I guess I am a bit conflicted on the topic. On one hand, I get restoration means that a piece has been altered, but having collected movie paper for as long as I have, it doesn't bother me that much. And I only display a very small fraction of my collection of posters.

Tom C

frankbmd · #8 07-09-2015, 05:15 PM

Breaking News

EvilKing00 · #9 07-09-2015, 08:42 PM

I can tell you having and origional classic car, imo, is better thsn a restored one

bxb · #10 07-10-2015, 08:56 AM

I wonder how many of our "original" high grade vintage cards are already touched up, but we can't tell and never will.

packs · #11 07-10-2015, 09:12 AM

As was said, there is only one painting and it is meant to be displayed. So I think we can all agree that a restored painting is going to be preferable to look at than a fading, hole ridden and unrecognizable work of art will be. The Last Supper is barely original. The rest has been repainted over centuries over and over again. Also everyone hated it when it was painted, so it was nearly bombed out during WWII. Do you want to look at what we have today or what it would look like on its own?

Cards are totally different. For the average vintage card, there will be thousands and maybe hundreds of thousands of them, each one more or less exactly the same as the last. So why would anyone prefer a faux, touched up version of a card that comes in such a large edition when you can get a real, original one any time you want?

Beastmode · #12 07-11-2015, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bxb

I wonder how many of our "original" high grade vintage cards are already touched up, but we can't tell and never will.

I'm surprised there are so many posts of pre-war collectors stating that do not care if a card has been altered as long as it's slabbed and graded.

Between this thread and the other one, many posts have the opinion that altered pre-war cards carry the same value as long as they are undetectable and slabbed.

What happens when PSA or TPG's come up with the technology to determine if existing slabbed cards have been altered in any manner? That technology is coming, and it may not be the TPG's that do this. I think you'll care then if your pre-war cards have been altered.

View Poll Results: Is it ok to restore collectibles?
Yes in all cases	7	4.43%
Yes, but must be disclosed	98	62.03%
Not in sports, but okay for other collectibles	15	9.49%
Never, just let them be	28	17.72%
Only when Bill Mastro or Doug Allen say its ok	10	6.33%
Voters: 158. You may not vote on this poll

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