Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would guess the technology exists now, but it would be anything but cost-effective for the TPGs to employ it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would guess the technology exists now, but it would be anything but cost-effective for the TPGs to employ it.

^^^^^ This is exactly right.
The technology exists to determine what chemicals a substance has been exposed to and it can be done without destroying or damaging the object.

Even simple exposure to water should leave some trace, not in what it leaves behind, but in what it removes and how it affects the paper itself. Some papers are more likely to be affected than others.

Papers are basically fibers mixed with water then drained on a screen and pressed to thickness. Some have things added at different points in the process depending on what you want the paper to be like. The paper for our money has red and blue fibers added, and recently they also add a plastic strip. Other papers get whiteners, sizing, coatings etc.

Soaking would typically remove a bit of sizing, as a lot of it is just starch usually from rice. It can also loosen the fibers near the surface. Something that isn't usually visible by eye but would be with decent magnification.

Many stains are just "stuff" that's settled in the tiny pockets between fibers. Others are stuff that's gotten into the fibers themselves. The first are fairly easy to remove and I believe should be removed. The second are more of a gray area since removing them would require more than just water.

Here's a little before and after to ponder.
Before - As found, nice, but lots of surface dirt from laying in a loose stack in a dusty attic for .........a long time.


After -
Cleaned with water and a q-tip. Just a light surface cleaning to remove the easiest of the dirt and grime. Sent in expecting a 40 since it was still a bit grubby, hoping not to get an A from the spot I overcleaned. Surprise!


It's not going anywhere anytime soon, and I have a post-it on the back of the slab so if I check out suddenly the wife or kids can disclose the cleaning.

Altered? Preserved? The dirt would have done damage eventually, and the little bit left will, just not as soon.

I'll have to take a high res scan of the after, a network of tiny cracks is visible in the clay coating (Typical, nearly all T206s have that) and much of the remaining dirt is in the cracks.

Very soon I'll have access to a bit of equipment that I believe has enough magnification to show the loosening of surface fibers from water. I even have a soaked candidate to test. (A desktop scanning electron microscope, Supposedly not enough to see the very tiny stuff like viruses, but enough for nearly anything else. )

But that costs 50K and the devices to detect chemical composition start around 30K if I'm not mistaken. Plus some training...........I can't see TPGs using them under the current business models. The ROI just wouldn't be there.

Steve Birmingham

[Peter_Spaeth]

Great information, Steve. It seems there is a world of difference between what a TPG can detect with minimal equipment on a one minute review and what COULD be detected with sufficient time, money and training. And I would even question whether TPGs could detect a lot more than they do if they really cared to, even under present review conditions. Unless Steve corrects me, I stand by my thesis that when solvents are used to remove stains from cards, there will be detectable changes in the paper.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Great information, Steve.

Let's assume that Steve is right when he says "Even simple exposure to water should leave some trace". How would a grading company detect the differecne between a card that had been soaked in water to remove a stain as opposed to a card that absorbed moisture/water from humidity? Should the card that absorbed moisture/water from humidity be labeled as the card that was soaked?

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Let's assume that Steve is right when he says "Even simple exposure to water should leave some trace". How would a grading company detect the differecne between a card that had been soaked in water to remove a stain as opposed to a card that absorbed moisture/water from humidity? Should the card that absorbed moisture/water from humidity be labeled as the card that was soaked?

This was exactly my point earlier, when I was saying people will likely always be more lenient towards cards that show evidence of soaking because it's so difficult to determine whether or not humidity was the true cause (although things like bleeding would be an obvious sign of a soak...). Not only that, people already consider water moisture as a part of the card already, given that nearly everything on the planet is composed of some amount of water.

That being said, I think someday we're going to see people start caring about other chemicals/solvents (much in the way car restoration used to be pervasive, now it's starting to be considered "molestation"). Maybe when the tests become easier and cheaper to carry out. At that point it will be interesting to see if anyone regrets having cards chemically altered.

[Stonepony]

One reason, besides cost, that TPGs don't break out the electron microscopes or mass spectrometers is that most people don't care to find out if there are subatomic changes to a card or that in 1950 my Mantle card was placed on a counter freshly cleaned with Bon Ami. I know I don't. I know that's being facetious, but do you really want to detect all this. Air and time destroy cards. Let's at least leave those 2 things alone.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dave, respectfully, air and time are not alterations with the intent to deceive. I personally would like to know if alterations with the intent to deceive have been made.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dave, respectfully, air and time are not alterations with the intent to deceive. I personally would like to know if alterations with the intent to deceive have been made.

Intent to deceive. I agree 100%.

[Stonepony]

Back to topic , is there sufficient evidence to conclude the E93s have been altered? Pretty bold statement by an experienced and respected board member.
I would like to see some veteran members chime in with a " yes" or " no"

[Stonepony]

Uhhhh make that my 51 Mantle