OT: Greatest Living Four

[celoknob]

Koufax had one of the best five year runs ever but if I was picking one pitcher I would definitely choose Randy Johnson, Maddux or Seaver as having greater careers.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by celoknob

Koufax had one of the best five year runs ever but if I was picking one pitcher I would definitely choose Randy Johnson, Maddux or Seaver as having greater careers.

I think it's tough to make this decision without having seen the players during their careers. I'm also biased towards Seaver as a Mets fan who grew up on him but also remember the long downside of his career -- which didn't exist for Koufax thus the strong memeories he left in fans' minds.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think it's tough to make this decision without having seen the players during their careers. I'm also biased towards Seaver as a Mets fan who grew up on him but also remember the long downside of his career -- which didn't exist for Koufax thus the strong memeories he left in fans' minds.

Jeff - here's a few Seaver stats few people are aware of: 1) After his first 15 seasons that cover approximately 4,000 innings pitched, his lifetime ERA was an incredible 2.60!!! Talk about an unparalleled combination of peak value and longevity. 2) Along with Walter Johnson, Seaver is one of only 2 pitchers EVER who won 300+ games, post 3,000+ strikeouts and have a sub-3.00 lifetime ERA...... wow!

Joe T.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Jeff - here's a few Seaver stats few people are aware of: 1) After his first 15 seasons that cover approximately 4,000 innings pitched, his lifetime ERA was an incredible 2.60!!! Talk about an unparalleled combination of peak value and longevity. 2) Along with Walter Johnson, Seaver is one of only 2 pitchers EVER who won 300+ games, post 3,000+ strikeouts and have a sub-3.00 lifetime ERA...... wow!

Joe T.

Do you remember when you heard he was traded for Doug Flynn, Pat Zachry and Steve Henderson? One of the darkest days of my youth. I still cringe when hearing the name "M. Donald Grant."

[bbcard1]

Not saying I don't get Koufax…I do, but another pitcher who played at the same time and hasn't gotten any love is Juan Marichal. ERA and srikeouts are comparable but she won 80+ more games and won 100 games more than he lost.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Not saying I don't get Koufax…I do, but another pitcher who played at the same time and hasn't gotten any love is Juan Marichal. ERA and srikeouts are comparable but she won 80+ more games and won 100 games more than he lost.

The years they pitched together, Koufax led the NL in wins 2 times, tied with Marichal once, Marichal never led the league by himself. Koufax led in era 5 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in strike outs 4 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in FIP 6 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in WHIP 4 times, Marichal 1. Koufax led in Ks/9 6 times, Marichal 0.

You say strike outs and era are comparable? Marichal's high for Ks was 248. Koufax had seasons of 382, 317, and 306. Ks/9 Koufax 9.3 Marichal 5.9. Marichal's best era was 2.13. Koufax's last 4 seasons were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73. How are those comparable? There is good reason why Koufax won 3 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, 2 MVP runner-ups and 2 World Series MVPs during those years and Marichal didn't get a single Cy Young vote.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

The years they pitched together, Koufax led the NL in wins 2 times, tied with Marichal once, Marichal never led the league by himself. Koufax led in era 5 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in strike outs 4 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in FIP 6 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in WHIP 4 times, Marichal 1. Koufax led in Ks/9 6 times, Marichal 0.

You say strike outs and era are comparable? Marichal's high for Ks was 248. Koufax had seasons of 382, 317, and 306. Ks/9 Koufax 9.3 Marichal 5.9. Marichal's best era was 2.13. Koufax's last 4 seasons were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73. How are those comparable? There is good reason why Koufax won 3 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, 2 MVP runner-ups and 2 World Series MVPs during those years and Marichal didn't get a single Cy Young vote.

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by rats60

The years they pitched together, Koufax led the NL in wins 2 times, tied with Marichal once, Marichal never led the league by himself. Koufax led in era 5 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in strike outs 4 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in FIP 6 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in WHIP 4 times, Marichal 1. Koufax led in Ks/9 6 times, Marichal 0.

You say strike outs and era are comparable? Marichal's high for Ks was 248. Koufax had seasons of 382, 317, and 306. Ks/9 Koufax 9.3 Marichal 5.9. Marichal's best era was 2.13. Koufax's last 4 seasons were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73. How are those comparable? There is good reason why Koufax won 3 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, 2 MVP runner-ups and 2 World Series MVPs during those years and Marichal didn't get a single Cy Young vote.

It goes back to how you judge them. The value over the career was greater for Marichal than Koufax as he won 100 more games (nearly) and had a better win percentage on teams that were not as successful. He was not popular, both because of his nationality and deportment and the fact that he wrapped a bat around John Roseboro's head. That contributed to his poor showing in popularity contests. If you want to make the argument the Koufax was better over a short period of time and Marichal was better over a long period of time, I have no beef with that.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Not saying I don't get Koufax…I do, but another pitcher who played at the same time and hasn't gotten any love is Juan Marichal. ERA and srikeouts are comparable but she won 80+ more games and won 100 games more than he lost.

Did Juan go the same route that Bruce Jenner went ???

Is she know known as Juanita ?

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Do you remember when you heard he was traded for Doug Flynn, Pat Zachry and Steve Henderson? One of the darkest days of my youth. I still cringe when hearing the name "M. Donald Grant."

Absolutely Jeff.....the "Midnight Massacre"! What a horrible day that was for all faithful Met fans.

[Joshchisox08]

Just to be different than others that were mentioned so much:

"The Big Hurt" Frank Thomas
"The Big Unit" Randy Johnson
"Pudge" Carlton Fisk
Joe Torre

[peterb69]

Mays, Aaron, Rose, Bonds