OT: Greatest Living Four

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

[Wayne]

I would go with
Nolan Ryan
Hank Aaron
Cal Ripken
Willie Mays

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

Never said he wasn't the best pitcher at his best....unquestionably the best peak value pitcher ever. But when iconic pitchers such as Seaver, Maddux, Johnson and Palmer, just to mention a few are performing at a superior level for 10-15 years, a 5 year pitcher cannot be rated ahead of them.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

Question my knowledge of baseball? Where did that come from genius? Fyi, Tom Seaver spent ONE season in AAA before being called up by the WORST team in baseball and won an incredible 16 games with a very bad '67 Mets team. It took Koufax 7 seasons to figure it out. If you can pitch, you can pitch. Bob Feller came to the majors virtually right out of high school and was blowing away hitters his first season.....your serve!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Question my knowledge of baseball? Where did that come from genius? Fyi, Tom Seaver spent ONE season in AAA before being called up by the WORST team in baseball and won an incredible 16 games with a very bad '67 Mets team. It took Koufax 7 seasons to figure it out. If you can pitch, you can pitch. Bob Feller came to the majors virtually right out of high school and was blowing away hitters his first season.....your serve!!!

If memory serves Dwight Gooden was tearing through major league batters at a very tender age. I hardly think Koufax's career path can be attributed to not being in the minors. It took him until his 7th year to find his control, reportedly because someone -- one of the catchers -- finally figured out he was overthrowing.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Question my knowledge of baseball? Where did that come from genius? Fyi, Tom Seaver spent ONE season in AAA before being called up by the WORST team in baseball and won an incredible 16 games with a very bad '67 Mets team. It took Koufax 7 seasons to figure it out. If you can pitch, you can pitch. Bob Feller came to the majors virtually right out of high school and was blowing away hitters his first season.....your serve!!!

And Tom Seaver went straight from high school to one season in the minors to the Mets? Could have fooled me. I thought he pitched in college for USC. I guess you don't know as much as you thought or were you just being deceptive thinking I didn't know that?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

And Tom Seaver went straight from high school to one season in the minors to the Mets? Could have fooled me. I thought he pitched in college for USC. I guess you don't know as much as you thought or were you just being deceptive thinking I didn't know that?

In fairness, you just made up the part about Seaver going straight from high school to the minors.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

And Tom Seaver went straight from high school to one season in the minors to the Mets? Could have fooled me. I thought he pitched in college for USC. I guess you don't know as much as you thought or were you just being deceptive thinking I didn't know that?

Never said he did genius. Just pointing out that at a MAJOR LEAGUE level, a 22/23 year old Seaver figured it out right away and didn't need "breaking in" with a horrible team. Seaver posted an incredible 2.48 ERA AFTER 10 SEASONS and 2.60 ERA AFTER 15 SEASONS!!! After 12 seasons & retirement, Koufax wax 2.76 n the finest era for pitchers since WWI??? Koufax definitely the more dominate pitcher at his best but over a career he falls short!