Greatest of all time

[j_cook]

I think Bonds would be a unanimous top 5 if you just look at what he did on the field. But it's impossible to know just how good the PED era stars really were. I've heard that Bonds was like a modern day version of Babe Ruth.

[darwinbulldog]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Walter Johnson
3. Cy Young
4. Willie Mays
5. Barry Bonds

If you take out the pitchers (other than Ruth of course),

1. Babe Ruth
2. Willie Mays
3. Barry Bonds
4. Ty Cobb
5. Rogers Hornsby

[Joshchisox08]

1. Cobb HANDS DOWN
2. Walter Johnson
3. Willie Mays
4. Babe Ruth
5. Stan Musial

[chipperhank44]

This was an interesting question for me. As far as batters are concerned, I had a pretty definitive list in my head. That said, I am also from the school of thought that OPS is the greatest indicator of a batter's value. So I looked up the career leaders in OPS and found an interesting top 5. (and yes I realize that defense and steals are not accounted for in OPS, but defense is hard as hell to quantify and I never saw any of these guys with my own eyes so the eyeball test is out the window, I will focus on hitting)

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx (skipped Bonds)
5. Greenberg


Now I am looking at a top 5 list and saying to myself, really, Greenberg and Foxx in my top 5? So I consider the following question, aren't hits and steals combined just as valuable as a double, if not more so? So I do the following:

Ty Cobb has 3053 total singles in his career and 897 total stolen bases. Why not subtract the total stolen bases from the number of singles and give those hits plus singles the value of a double in the slugging percentage equation. So I do this, and it works out as follows.

Ty Cobb

Total 1B - 2156 (singles minus stolen bases)
Total 2B - 1621 (doubles plus stolen bases)
Total 3B - 295
Total HR - 117
Total AB - 11434

With these numbers, Cobb's career SLG% is elevated from .512 to .590. When combined with his career OBP of .433 you get an OPS (adjusted for steals) of 1.023, which is good enough for 5th place (excluding Bonds) on the all time OPS list.

I know there all holes in this logic, like the fact that every SB is not combined with a hit, many are after walks or HBP, but this was just my attempt to make OPS fair to the base thief. The ability to turn a walk, HBP, or single into a runner in scoring position is invaluable, so I had to account for it somehow. I'm sure if I added Greenberg or Hornsby's steals to their slugging calculation, they might overtake Cobb on the OPS list, but Cobb belongs IMO and this is how I reconciled it.

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx
5. Cobb


Not sure if this is a novel idea or if someone is going to tell me OPS adjusted for steals is already a thing, but either way, I like it quite a lot.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by chipperhank44

This was an interesting question for me. As far as batters are concerned, I had a pretty definitive list in my head. That said, I am also from the school of thought that OPS is the greatest indicator of a batter's value. So I looked up the career leaders in OPS and found an interesting top 5. (and yes I realize that defense and steals are not accounted for in OPS, but defense is hard as hell to quantify and I never saw any of these guys with my own eyes so the eyeball test is out the window, I will focus on hitting)

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx (skipped Bonds)
5. Greenberg


Now I am looking at a top 5 list and saying to myself, really, Greenberg and Foxx in my top 5? So I consider the following question, aren't hits and steals combined just as valuable as a double, if not more so? So I do the following:

Ty Cobb has 3053 total singles in his career and 897 total stolen bases. Why not subtract the total stolen bases from the number of singles and give those hits plus singles the value of a double in the slugging percentage equation. So I do this, and it works out as follows.

Ty Cobb

Total 1B - 2156 (singles minus stolen bases)
Total 2B - 1621 (doubles plus stolen bases)
Total 3B - 295
Total HR - 117
Total AB - 11434

With these numbers, Cobb's career SLG% is elevated from .512 to .590. When combined with his career OBP of .433 you get an OPS (adjusted for steals) of 1.023, which is good enough for 5th place (excluding Bonds) on the all time OPS list.

I know there all holes in this logic, like the fact that every SB is not combined with a hit, many are after walks or HBP, but this was just my attempt to make OPS fair to the base thief. The ability to turn a walk, HBP, or single into a runner in scoring position is invaluable, so I had to account for it somehow. I'm sure if I added Greenberg or Hornsby's steals to their slugging calculation, they might overtake Cobb on the OPS list, but Cobb belongs IMO and this is how I reconciled it.

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx
5. Cobb


Not sure if this is a novel idea or if someone is going to tell me OPS adjusted for steals is already a thing, but either way, I like it quite a lot.

Interesting way of looking at his singles to Stolen Bases. Though I'm sure a lot of Stolen Bases were to Third After a Double too or to Home after a Triple.

I like your interpretation of converting his stolen bases into doubles just not where you placed Cobb

[chipperhank44]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Interesting way of looking at his singles to Stolen Bases. Though I'm sure a lot of Stolen Bases were to Third After a Double too or to Home after a Triple.

I like your interpretation of converting his stolen bases into doubles just not where you placed Cobb

Oh trust me, I think Cobb belongs at the top of the list, but was trying a purely statistical way of ranking hitters. I would have also had Aaron in my top 5. Tough to keep the HR champ and RBI champ off the list, but "greatest" can be based on a number of things, longevity vs dominance is a tough argument.

[Greg Sonk]

Ruth

Bonds
Cobb
Mays
Walter Johnson

I am so happy to see a lack of unobjective Jeteresque occurrences in these lists.

Originally Posted by chipperhank44

This was an interesting question for me. As far as batters are concerned, I had a pretty definitive list in my head. That said, I am also from the school of thought that OPS is the greatest indicator of a batter's value. So I looked up the career leaders in OPS and found an interesting top 5. (and yes I realize that defense and steals are not accounted for in OPS, but defense is hard as hell to quantify and I never saw any of these guys with my own eyes so the eyeball test is out the window, I will focus on hitting)

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx (skipped Bonds)
5. Greenberg


Now I am looking at a top 5 list and saying to myself, really, Greenberg and Foxx in my top 5? So I consider the following question, aren't hits and steals combined just as valuable as a double, if not more so? So I do the following:

Ty Cobb has 3053 total singles in his career and 897 total stolen bases. Why not subtract the total stolen bases from the number of singles and give those hits plus singles the value of a double in the slugging percentage equation. So I do this, and it works out as follows.

Ty Cobb

Total 1B - 2156 (singles minus stolen bases)
Total 2B - 1621 (doubles plus stolen bases)
Total 3B - 295
Total HR - 117
Total AB - 11434

With these numbers, Cobb's career SLG% is elevated from .512 to .590. When combined with his career OBP of .433 you get an OPS (adjusted for steals) of 1.023, which is good enough for 5th place (excluding Bonds) on the all time OPS list.

I know there all holes in this logic, like the fact that every SB is not combined with a hit, many are after walks or HBP, but this was just my attempt to make OPS fair to the base thief. The ability to turn a walk, HBP, or single into a runner in scoring position is invaluable, so I had to account for it somehow. I'm sure if I added Greenberg or Hornsby's steals to their slugging calculation, they might overtake Cobb on the OPS list, but Cobb belongs IMO and this is how I reconciled it.

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx
5. Cobb


Not sure if this is a novel idea or if someone is going to tell me OPS adjusted for steals is already a thing, but either way, I like it quite a lot.

I like this post so much and I don't even agree with some of the logic.

Sabermetrics are not a boogeyman come to carelessly toss away the history of the game, they are simply attempts to more accurately quantify performance. You had the logical thought that a weakness with OPS is its ignoracne of speed and set out to fix it.

For the record, if you're looking for something that accounts for speed in a similar way, check out wOBA. It's an excellent attempt to iron out the combined flaws of OPS, SLG, and AVG.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by chipperhank44

This was an interesting question for me. As far as batters are concerned, I had a pretty definitive list in my head. That said, I am also from the school of thought that OPS is the greatest indicator of a batter's value. So I looked up the career leaders in OPS and found an interesting top 5. (and yes I realize that defense and steals are not accounted for in OPS, but defense is hard as hell to quantify and I never saw any of these guys with my own eyes so the eyeball test is out the window, I will focus on hitting)

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx (skipped Bonds)
5. Greenberg


Now I am looking at a top 5 list and saying to myself, really, Greenberg and Foxx in my top 5? So I consider the following question, aren't hits and steals combined just as valuable as a double, if not more so? So I do the following:

Ty Cobb has 3053 total singles in his career and 897 total stolen bases. Why not subtract the total stolen bases from the number of singles and give those hits plus singles the value of a double in the slugging percentage equation. So I do this, and it works out as follows.

Ty Cobb

Total 1B - 2156 (singles minus stolen bases)
Total 2B - 1621 (doubles plus stolen bases)
Total 3B - 295
Total HR - 117
Total AB - 11434

With these numbers, Cobb's career SLG% is elevated from .512 to .590. When combined with his career OBP of .433 you get an OPS (adjusted for steals) of 1.023, which is good enough for 5th place (excluding Bonds) on the all time OPS list.

I know there all holes in this logic, like the fact that every SB is not combined with a hit, many are after walks or HBP, but this was just my attempt to make OPS fair to the base thief. The ability to turn a walk, HBP, or single into a runner in scoring position is invaluable, so I had to account for it somehow. I'm sure if I added Greenberg or Hornsby's steals to their slugging calculation, they might overtake Cobb on the OPS list, but Cobb belongs IMO and this is how I reconciled it.

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx
5. Cobb


Not sure if this is a novel idea or if someone is going to tell me OPS adjusted for steals is already a thing, but either way, I like it quite a lot.

If you count a single followed by a stolen base as a double then you should also count a single followed by a caught stealing as an out instead of a hit. In Cobb's case that would probably be in the neighborhood of 400 fewer hits.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by chipperhank44

This was an interesting question for me. As far as batters are concerned, I had a pretty definitive list in my head. That said, I am also from the school of thought that OPS is the greatest indicator of a batter's value. So I looked up the career leaders in OPS and found an interesting top 5. (and yes I realize that defense and steals are not accounted for in OPS, but defense is hard as hell to quantify and I never saw any of these guys with my own eyes so the eyeball test is out the window, I will focus on hitting)



1. Ruth

2. Williams

3. Gehrig

4. Foxx (skipped Bonds)

5. Greenberg





Now I am looking at a top 5 list and saying to myself, really, Greenberg and Foxx in my top 5? So I consider the following question, aren't hits and steals combined just as valuable as a double, if not more so? So I do the following:



Ty Cobb has 3053 total singles in his career and 897 total stolen bases. Why not subtract the total stolen bases from the number of singles and give those hits plus singles the value of a double in the slugging percentage equation. So I do this, and it works out as follows.



Ty Cobb



Total 1B - 2156 (singles minus stolen bases)

Total 2B - 1621 (doubles plus stolen bases)

Total 3B - 295

Total HR - 117

Total AB - 11434



With these numbers, Cobb's career SLG% is elevated from .512 to .590. When combined with his career OBP of .433 you get an OPS (adjusted for steals) of 1.023, which is good enough for 5th place (excluding Bonds) on the all time OPS list.



I know there all holes in this logic, like the fact that every SB is not combined with a hit, many are after walks or HBP, but this was just my attempt to make OPS fair to the base thief. The ability to turn a walk, HBP, or single into a runner in scoring position is invaluable, so I had to account for it somehow. I'm sure if I added Greenberg or Hornsby's steals to their slugging calculation, they might overtake Cobb on the OPS list, but Cobb belongs IMO and this is how I reconciled it.



1. Ruth

2. Williams

3. Gehrig

4. Foxx

5. Cobb





Not sure if this is a novel idea or if someone is going to tell me OPS adjusted for steals is already a thing, but either way, I like it quite a lot.

Quit pretending like Bonds never played, geez.

He's a part of the games history, grow up and deal with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chipperhank44]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Quit pretending like Bonds never played, geez.

He's a part of the games history, grow up and deal with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quit being ignorant and calling Bonds the greatest of all time and I'll consider it.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by chipperhank44

Quit being ignorant and calling Bonds the greatest of all time and I'll consider it.

Barry Bonds was better at baseball than any human being in the history of the sport.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Barry Bonds was better at baseball than any human being in the history of the sport.

Hard to argue against that. I personally would go with Mr Ted Williams as the best ever.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by chipperhank44

Quit being ignorant and calling Bonds the greatest of all time and I'll consider it.

How is it ignorant? It's my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rats60]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

How is it ignorant? It's my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If he was any good, he wouldn't have needed to dope. He was ok with Pitt, but he went to SF and felt he needed to start doping in 1993 to be better. Clean it was questionable if he would have even made the HOF, like Roger Maris or Dale Murphy.

[MattyC]

Gehrig
Ruth
Williams
Mantle
Cobb
Shoeless
Musial
Bonds
Aaron
Mays
*Hon Mention Foxx

[JustinD]

Ruth
Williams
Mays
Josh Gibson
Bonds

[Cozumeleno]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Barry Bonds
5. Ted Williams

If you asked me in five minutes, I might very well find a place for Christy Mathewson.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Barry Bonds
5. Ted Williams

If you asked me in five minutes, I might very well find a place for Christy Mathewson.

That guy that didn't make the top 4 all time Giants. Maybe you should consider Buster Posey.

Kidding of course.

[bnorth]

1 Ted Williams
2 Ty Cobb
3 Babe Ruth
4 Barry Bonds
5 Roger Clemens
6 Wade Boggs Ok not really on Boggs but he is my all time favorite player. Show me a man that can drink more Miller Lights on a flight and I will remove him

Originally Posted by bnorth

1 Ted Williams
2 Ty Cobb
3 Babe Ruth
4 Barry Bonds
5 Roger Clemens
6 Wade Boggs Ok not really on Boggs but he is my all time favorite player. Show me a man that can drink more Miller Lights on a flight and I will remove him

Sox fan?

[Jdoggs]

Babe Ruth greatest of all time.
After that mays, bonds, williams, and mantle.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by brewing

That guy that didn't make the top 4 all time Giants. Maybe you should consider Buster Posey.

Kidding of course.

Haha, yeah, it was really difficult for me in deciding to include Bonds or not. I had to include him for a bunch of reasons, though.

He was already the best player in baseball before steroids with three (should have been four straight) MVPs. Then there's the eye test - it was ridiculous how dominant he was and for a five-year stretch, you expected him to homer or walk. With eight Gold Gloves, he was a superior defensive player as well. And just for fun, he went out and stole 500 bases. He was quite arguably the most complete player ever.

What bothers me is that he's often lumped in with Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, who were both breaking down well before they reached 40. Even at 41 and 42 in his last two seasons, he still led the league in walks, intentional walks, and on base percentage. He was so much better than those guys that it's not even funny.

I know the PEDs will keep him off of these types of list for many, and I get that. It's totally fair - dude cheated. But if you're asking me for the list of best players, I have to include him.

[EvilKing00]

Ruth
Williams
Gherig
Cobb
Bonds

[CMIZ5290]

I say again...

Cobb
Mantle
Ruth....any order you see fit....

[Orioles1954]

Craig Worthington
Tim Hulett
Mike Devereaux
Mickey Tettleton
Steve Finley

[Joshwesley]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Craig Worthington
Tim Hulett
Mike Devereaux
Mickey Tettleton
Steve Finley

No Brady Anderson?

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Joshwesley

No Brady Anderson?

Nah, true Orioles fans love Devo.

Honorable Mention: Jim "The Whammer" Traber

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Tim Hulett

I must seem like Tim Hulett's biggest fan to some folks - I have 8-10 game worn jerseys of his.

Of course, they're all from his tenure with the Spokane Indians as their manager, and I only buy them because we wear the same size and his jerseys are always cheap, but hey... I've got them

[Tabe]

My five would look something like:

1) Ruth
2) Bonds
3) Mantle
4) Mays
5) Williams

[glchen]

(1) Ruth
(2) Cobb
(3) Williams
(4) Mays
(5) Gehrig
(6) Stan Musial
(7) Walter Johnson
(8) Christy Mathewson
(9) Rogers Hornsby
(10) Honus Wagner

[MartyFromCANADA]

Ruth, Robinson, Mays, Aaron, Rose

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by MartyFromCANADA

Ruth, Robinson, Mays, Aaron, Rose

Good one. Brooks Robinson should be on more of these lists.

[vintagebb2014]

1. Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Mathewson
4. Gehrig
5. Walter Johnson

I am very skeptical of any player Post 1980's due to PED's. My list is based on skill, impact on the game and individual records.

[pokerplyr80]

I had left Bonds off of my list for obvious reasons. If we ignore the steroid issue he would have been #4 on my list.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by vintagebb2014

1. Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Mathewson
4. Gehrig
5. Walter Johnson

I am very skeptical of any player Post 1980's due to PED's. My list is based on skill, impact on the game and individual records.

That is mitigated by the fact that these players weren't allowed to face the best African-American ball players.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

That is mitigated by the fact that these players weren't allowed to face the best African-American ball players.

+1

[packs]

Babe Ruth is the single greatest player of all time, and greatest all around player as well. No one else will ever do what he was able to do on a baseball field. He out hit the entire American League by himself. I don't need to tell anyone about his dominance as a pitcher too. There will never be another player who dominates the game like he did.

[vintagehofrookies]

my Top 5 hitters:
Cobb
Ruth
Mays
Bonds
Aaron

my top 5 Pitchers:
Johnson
Mathewson
Paige
Ryan
Clemens

[robw1959]

Barry Bonds, as far as I know, has never hit a 500-foot home run. In 1920, the first year that Ruth became an every day player for the Yankees, he hit a 500-foot home run in EVERY American league ballpark he visited. In modern day parlance, Babe Ruth was a freak.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Barry Bonds, as far as I know, has never hit a 500-foot home run. In 1920, the first year that Ruth became an every day player for the Yankees, he hit a 500-foot home run in EVERY American league ballpark he visited. In modern day parlance, Babe Ruth was a freak.

Not really sure what that proves in a conversation of greatest of all time. Evan Gattis hit the longest homerun of the year two seasons ago. Would you like to argue he's the best player in baseball?

[sycks22]

Top hitters
Ruth
Cobb
Mays
Williams

Top Pitchers
Mathewson
Wajo
Pedro (Dominated during the most hitter friendly era / no PED's like Clemens)

[porkchops]

Yeah , I was wondering how the 62 Mets might have
finished if they had a rookie name Babe Ruth on their roster.
Doubt they'd have lost 120 , but who knows.
A lot of good players around today , but what would the quality of play be
if the best were re-teamed to only 16 rosters?

[timn1]

1. Wagner
2. Wagner
3. Wagner
4. Ruth
5. Cobb

PITCHERS
1. Grove
2. Johnson
3. Maddux
4. Spahn
5. Young

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Top hitters
Ruth
Mays
Williams

Top Pitchers
Mathewson
Wajo
Pedro (Dominated during the most hitter friendly era / no PED's like Clemens)

Pedro just never got caught. His career screams PED user and was on a team full of them. How this guy and Rickey Henderson get a free pass on PED use just amazes me beyond belief.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Pedro just never got caught. His career screams PED user and was on a team full of them. How this guy and Rickey Henderson get a free pass on PED use just amazes me beyond belief.

Agree on Rickey, but I've never particularly suspected Pedro.

[darwinbulldog]

Babe Ruth pitched 62% as many innings in his career as Dizzy Dean did, and Ruth had a better WHIP.

On an unrelated note, Home Run Baker hit more triples than home runs.

On an even less related note, Freud is more popular with English professors than with psychology professors.

[tbob]

Mantle is a top 5 all-time guy. Without the injuries, he would be #1 on my list. As it is, Babe was and is the best.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

... Freud is more popular with English professors than with psychology professors.

That's because of the rampant English professorial cocaine usage

[glchen]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Pedro just never got caught. His career screams PED user and was on a team full of them. How this guy and Rickey Henderson get a free pass on PED use just amazes me beyond belief.

Pedro was skinny and stayed skinny, so he never looked like a PED user (e.g., Sosa, Bonds). He was great from early on, so was not a case where a suddenly average player became great (e.g., Ortiz). His career also petered out in his early 30s, so he didn't have a natural decline and then suddenly became great again (e.g., Clemens, Bonds). If you continue to be great in your late 30s, that raises flags, but Pedro had retired by then. Obviously, you never know, but I think that's why most people don't suspect him.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by glchen

Pedro was skinny and stayed skinny, so he never looked like a PED user (e.g., Sosa, Bonds). He was great from early on, so was not a case where a suddenly average player became great (e.g., Ortiz). His career also petered out in his early 30s, so he didn't have a natural decline and then suddenly became great again (e.g., Clemens, Bonds). If you continue to be great in your late 30s, that raises flags, but Pedro had retired by then. Obviously, you never know, but I think that's why most people don't suspect him.

That is just one of the big misconceptions with PEDs. Being skinny and staying skinny just means he did not use a steroid used to build mass. His career petered out early because of the PED abuse.

Bonds only used at the end of his career and look how after a couple years the injuries built up quick. With Clemens I am really on the fence. He had a very long career so he had to be very smart with his PED use. Look at all the strange injuries the other PED uses had that he somehow never got. I am sure he did use something but did crazily overuse like McGwire, Sosa, Giambi and Bonds who juiced to the gills. Would go into more detail but got to get back to work.