Greatest of all time

[the 'stache]

I can't mix hitters and pitchers, because the game is so fundamentally different for them. How could you possibly say who is the better player of Walter Johnson or Willie Mays, when there is no statistical basis for doing so? It would be sheer opinion.

This is going to be very difficult.

Hitters:

Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Ty Cobb
Lou Gehrig
Joe DiMaggio
Mickey Mantle
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Stan Musial
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Honus Wagner
Rogers Hornsby
Roberto Clemente
Johnny Bench
Barry Bonds
Rickey Henderson
Napolean Lajoie
Tris Speaker
Tony Gwynn


Pitchers:
Walter Johnson
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Cy Young
Tom Seaver
Roger Clemens
Lefty Grove

List is still evolving. It's impossible for me to limit my positional players to just ten. If I were to look at just the hitting aspect, maybe I could do it. But I can't ignore things like defense and base stealing.

If I am looking at the most complete positional player in history, it's a short list: Willie Mays is at the very top. Bonds is close behind (hard for me to compare because of the PED variable). DiMaggio wasn't a base stealer, but he did everything else very well. Hank Aaron is pretty high on that list. The others would be open to discussion. I think players like Clemente, Bench and Mike Schmidt are too often overlooked, or undervalued, when their complete game is looked at.

Most naturally gifted player? Mickey Mantle, without a doubt in my mind. With a myriad of injuries that would have crippled lesser athletes, what he accomplished as a baseball player was simply phenomenal. When I think of what a healthy Mantle would have done...with that power, that eye, and the legs he had before tearing up his knee for the first time... /shudder. A healthy Mantle could have put up numbers (at Yankee Stadium, no less) that would have never been approached.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You forgot (I hope) Cy Young.

[the 'stache]

Yes. This is becoming an increasingly difficult task.

[CMIZ5290]

Mantle, Ruth, Cobb.....Mix them up however you desire.....

[JoeyFarino]

Ruth
Cobb
Aaron
Gehrig
Mays

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I can't mix hitters and pitchers, because the game is so fundamentally different for them. How could you possibly say who is the better player of Walter Johnson or Willie Mays, when there is no statistical basis for doing so? It would be sheer opinion.

This is going to be very difficult.

Hitters:

Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Ty Cobb
Lou Gehrig
Joe DiMaggio
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Stan Musial
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Honus Wagner

Just missed: Rogers Hornsby (it pains me to not have him in my top ten), Tony Gwynn, Jimmie Foxx, Roberto Clemente, Barry Bonds, Mickey Mantle.

Pitchers:
Walter Johnson
Rogers Hornsby
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Cy Young
Tom Seaver
Roger Clemens
Lefty Grove (gimme 11)

That's my initial thoughts. I'm likely to go back and revise these lists.

Bill- I believe you overrated Hornsby as a pitcher.
.
.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Bill- I believe you overrated Hornsby as a pitcher.

Oy, I have really sucked wind in this discussion. First, I omit the only 500 game winner in MLB history from my pitchers list, and now I make Rajah a hurler.

Just a bad list-edit when previewing my post. It occurred to me that I'd forgotten Hornsby, and I stuck him in the wrong place.

Is there a limit to the number of Mulligans we get in one thread?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mathewson an intentional omission?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mathewson an intentional omission?

Mathewson in my opinion was the greatest pitcher of all time. If you disagree with this, he certainly has to be in your top 5.....

[the 'stache]

Just an oversight, especially since I'm about 15 pages short of finishing Pitching in a Pinch. I've been re-reading it for a little over a week before trying to going to bed.

What can I say? Insomnia, and the five different medications I'm on are screwing with my head big time. When I was typing out the list, I thought to myself the first two pitchers on it would be Johnson and Mathewson. My best guess, when I split the list of best players into the two categories, I just deleted Matty from the list of hitters, and forgot to put him in the second one. I've had so many other names on the list (Ed Walsh, Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez), I probably forgot somebody else obvious, too. I'm trying.

[cool-vintage]

Position Players
1.B.Ruth
2.T.Cobb
3.T.Williams
4.J.Beckley
5.C.Anson
6.R.Hornsby
7.F.Baker

Pitchers
1.W.Johnson
2.C.Mathewson
3.C.Young
4.S.Koufax
5.G.Alexander

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Mathewson in my opinion was the greatest pitcher of all time. If you disagree with this, he certainly has to be in your top 5.....

Not for me.

1 WaJo
2 Cy
3 Rocket
4 Kid
5 Pete

Matty'd be in the top 10 though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Due to military service, Spahn did not win a game until he was 25, and still won 363, pitching for the most part for an average team. Hard to leave him off.

[horzverti]

Just curious, how well do you think Babe Ruth would fare against our current aces (Grienke, Kershaw, Max, Felix)?

How would Mike Trout, or Bonds and Pujols in their prime, do against Walter Johnson, Matty, Cy Young, Pete Alexander or Grove?

Let's consider all players while in their prime and using today's equipment.