Future HOFers

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mrvintage

How anyone that watches baseball questions Clayton Kershaw being a HOF player is beyond me.

For the simple reason that it's too early in his career. Doc Gooden started off 119-53. Kershaw is 108-55.

[HRBAKER]

He certainly seems headed that way, but to Peter's point so did Gooden. Clayton doesn't seem to have the demons that Dwight did. If his career ended today - he would not get in, hence I don't regard him as a lock.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

He certainly seems headed that way, but to Peter's point so did Gooden. Clayton doesn't seem to have the demons that Dwight did. If his career ended today - he would not get in, hence I don't regard him as a lock.

And if he went 90-95 for the rest of his career averaging 9 wins a season I'm not sure he would get in either. He's quite obviously on track, but he has to keep going.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

He certainly seems headed that way, but to Peter's point so did Gooden. Clayton doesn't seem to have the demons that Dwight did. If his career ended today - he would not get in, hence I don't regard him as a lock.

As another example, Denny Mclain. 114-57 at age 25. And then....

[theshleps]

How to accumulate so many signed cards. Get spring training rosters for majors and minors and try to buy at least 4-5 cards of each guy or as many as available as well as all minor league team sets for that team for the previous years. Spend 3 weeks at mlb spring training and another 2 at minor league getting aautographs from 6am-6pm 7 days a week. Average day is 100-200 different signed cards. Do it for 10 years. You may end up with 30 or more signed cards (all different) of some guys that are willing signers- so for instance Josh Hamilton would gladly sign 6-8 cards at a time. get different ones each year and pretty soon you have 4--50 of him especially with all the variations- chrome, regular, etc. Go to minor league spring training that has 200 players armed with 1-3 cards of most of them.. Be a perfectionist/hoarder. Some folks have 100,000 signed and then the dealers who get many of the same card signed at a time to sell on ebay may have up to 500,000 signed in their inventory especially getting guys in their first minor league season when they gladly sign everything everyone has.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by theshleps

How to accumulate so many signed cards. Get spring training rosters for majors and minors and try to buy at least 4-5 cards of each guy or as many as available as well as all minor league team sets for that team for the previous years. Spend 3 weeks at mlb spring training and another 2 at minor league getting aautographs from 6am-6pm 7 days a week. Average day is 100-200 different signed cards. Do it for 10 years. You may end up with 30 or more signed cards (all different) of some guys that are willing signers- so for instance Josh Hamilton would gladly sign 6-8 cards at a time. get different ones each year and pretty soon you have 4--50 of him especially with all the variations- chrome, regular, etc. Go to minor league spring training that has 200 players armed with 1-3 cards of most of them.. Be a perfectionist/hoarder. Some folks have 100,000 signed and then the dealers who get many of the same card signed at a time to sell on ebay may have up to 500,000 signed in their inventory especially getting guys in their first minor league season when they gladly sign everything everyone has.

This^^ or you could do like most ebay sellers and buy a few different colored pens/markers a bunch of cards and start signing.

EDITED to add in no way shape or form is David Ortiz a HOFer or should ever be considered anything other than a guy that steroids gave him all his #'s. He couldn't even make the Twins everyday lineup without them.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by bnorth

This^^ or you could do like most ebay sellers and buy a few different colored pens/markers a bunch of cards and start signing.

EDITED to add in no way shape or form is David Ortiz a HOFer or should ever be considered anything other than a guy that steroids gave him all his #'s. He couldn't even make the Twins everyday lineup without them.

TESTIFY Ben !!!!!!!!!!! TESTIFY !!!!!!!!!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For the simple reason that it's too early in his career. Doc Gooden started off 119-53. Kershaw is 108-55.

Dwight Gooden had only one truly dominant season. He was outstanding as a rookie, don't get me wrong, but his ERA + was only a 137. He was 17-9 with a 2.60 ERA and 276 K's. He led the NL in K's, K/9 IP and WHIP. His second season was one for the ages, obviously. 24-4 with a 1.53 ERA, 268 K's. He led the NL in wins, ERA, K's, innings pitched, and complete games (16). He also had 8 shutouts en route to a 229 ERA +.

Clayton Kershaw has been the dominant pitcher in the NL, and baseball, for five season straight. And you could make the case it's really been six. In 2010, he was only 13-10, but had a 2.91 ERA and 202 K's as a 22 year old. His 133 ERA + was only 4 points off of Gooden's rookie season, which everybody went gaga over. When I show you his Hall of Fame metrics, Peter, he's already crossed some of those Hall thresholds, and he's only 27.

He has led the National League in:

Wins: twice, 2011 (21), and 2014 (21)
ERA: four times, 2011 (2.28), 2012 (2.53), 2013 (1.83), and 2014 (1.77).
Strikeouts: two times, 2011 (248), 2013 (232). He leads the NL with 222 in 117 IP this year.
WHIP: four times, 2011 (0.977), 2012 (1.023), 2013 (0.915), 2014 (0.857).
Hits per 9 IP: three times, 2009 (6.3), 2011 (6.7), 2012 (6.7).

He's won three Cy Young Awards, an MVP, and a Gold Glove. Going back to 2010, 183 starts, he's 95-42 with a 2.26 ERA with 1,382 K's in 1,276 IP.

And his control is improving, if you can believe that. He struck out 10.8 per 9 IP (best in the NL) last year, while walking only 32 batters, a league-best 7.71 K's per walk. This year he has 222 K's against 32 walks, a 6.91 K per walk ratio.

To put his greatness in perspective, since 1901, of all Major League pitchers with at least 1,500 innings pitched in their first eight seasons (there are 250 of them), only four--Walter Johnson, Mordecai Brown, and Lefty Grove--had a better ERA + than Kershaw's 153. Of those 250 pitchers, only Tom Seaver, Bert Blyleven and Johnson struck out more batters than Kershaw (and they had 2,167, 2,143 and 2,442 innings pitched compared to Kershaw's 1,555!) His strikeouts per 9 IP average of 9.6 is the third highest in baseball history behind Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez (just ahead of Nolan Ryan). And, it's rising. He's striking out 11.3/9 IP this year.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For the simple reason that it's too early in his career. Doc Gooden started off 119-53. Kershaw is 108-55.

I absolutely agree it's too early in his career to call him a Hall of Famer. We don't know what goes on in his private life, but I don't see him going the direction of Gooden or McClain. If he stays healthy, he'll have a few more dominant seasons comparable to what he's had the last five...really six, if you look at some of the metrics. Figure that he's going to have 150 wins, and about 2,200 strikeouts by age 30. Considering how great he's been, it's downright criminal he's not won more. 10 wins this year? 14 in 2012? 16 in 2013 (with a 1.83 ERA across 33 starts)?

By the way, here are his Hall of Fame metrics. Pretty eye popping.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I absolutely agree it's too early in his career to call him a Hall of Famer. We don't know what goes on in his private life, but I don't see him going the direction of Gooden or McClain. If he stays healthy, he'll have a few more dominant seasons comparable to what he's had the last five...really six, if you look at some of the metrics. Figure that he's going to have 150 wins, and about 2,200 strikeouts by age 30. Considering how great he's been, it's downright criminal he's not won more. 10 wins this year? 14 in 2012? 16 in 2013 (with a 1.83 ERA across 33 starts)?

By the way, here are his Hall of Fame metrics. Pretty eye popping.

I absolutely agree, I think it's highly likely he continues on course and he certainly seems to be stable personally. My only point has been that sh*t happens and that things can fall apart for guys who look like locks.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I absolutely agree, I think it's highly likely he continues on course and he certainly seems to be stable personally. My only point has been that sh*t happens and that things can fall apart for guys who look like locks.

Ain't that the truth, unfortunately?

I've always wondered what would have happened to the Houston Astros if J.R. Richard hadn't had that blood clot. How great could their starters have been in 1981? The Braves rotation of the early to late 90s is often mentioned as the best in the modern era-in 1993 they had Tom Glavine (22-6), Greg Maddux (20-10), Steve Avery (18-6), and John Smoltz (15-11), and in 1998 they had Glavine (20-6), Maddux (18-9), Smoltz (17-3), Kevin Milwood (17-8) and Denny Neagle (16-11). Of course, the 1971 Baltimore Orioles had four 20 game winners in Dave McNally (21-5), Pat Dobson (20-8), Mike Cuellar (20-9) and Hall of Famer Jim Palmer (20-9).

But look at what the Astros could have put out there in the mid 80s.

In 1980, J.R. Richard started 17 games before collapsing during a pre game warm up. That stroke ended his career. He'd been 10-4 with a 1.90 ERA, 119 K's in 113 IP, and a 174 ERA +. His WHIP was a career-best 0.924. He'd gone 36-24 with a 2.90 ERA and 616 K's the prior two seasons. He was clearly one of the most dominant pitchers in the game, and was only 30. And, to that point, he'd only pitched 1,600 career innings. He hadn't worked over 100 innings in a season until 1975, when he first went over 200 IP. The Astros also still had Nolan Ryan, who would have a spectacular 1981 strike-shortened season. He was 11-5 with a league-leading 1.69 ERA, 140 K's in 149 IP, and an amazing 2 home runs allowed. His ERA + was a whopping 195, the best of his Hall of Fame career. The Astros also had Joe Niekro, who was 4th in the National League Cy Young Award for the 1980 season. He was 20-12 with a 3.55 ERA, and 127 K's. In 1981, he was only 9-9, but he had a 2.82 ERA, and a 1.187 WHIP, which is very good. In 1982, he would go 17-12 with a 2.47 ERA, and a 1.067 WHIP. Niekro would remain in Houston until late 1985, when he went to the Yankees.

But what if Richard's career had continued? The Astros would feature Richard, Ryan, Niekro...and in 1983, they would be joined by Mike Scott. Scott, of course, won the Cy Young in 1986 for the Astros, going 18-10 with a 2.22 ERA, and 306 K's. Nolan Ryan, the ageless wonder, was still a great pitcher. In 1986, he struck out 194 batters. The next four seasons, he would lead the league in K's, with 270 and 228 in 1987 and 1988 with the Astros, and 301 and 232 in 1989 and 1990 with the Rangers. In 1986, the Astros would have featured three pitchers who'd thrown over 300 strike outs in a season as their top 3, Bob Knepper, who won 17 games in 1986 as their #4, and Jim Deshaies as their #5. Deshaies went 12-5 with a 3.25 ERA that year.

The Astros went 96-66 in 1986 without Richard. The Astros lost to the eventual World Champions, the New York Mets, in the NLCS. The Mets won 108 games that year. Could Richard have made the difference?

[h2oya311]

breaks my heart to this day that the 'Stros lost in '86 to the Mets...That was an AWESOME series (from the perspective of an impressionable 9-year old)!

[the 'stache]

Kershaw's 45.2 WAR through his first eight season is the 15th highest by any pitcher going back to 1901. Figure he has 7 or 8 more starts this season based on games remaining, and the Dodger rotation. He has a 5.5 WAR through 23 starts, so, if his production is constant, figure another 1.8-2.0 WAR this season. That puts him right behind Christy Mathewson's 47.7 WAR through his first eight seasons for thirteenth-best ever. Now, it's hard to compare different eras, and I'm certainly not equating Kershaw to Mathewson--because I want to see how Kershaw's career finishes before I even think of putting him anywhere near arguably the best pitcher to ever play the game (Matty is on my short list of five-Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Greg Maddux being three of the other four for sure. Then I look at a group including Roger Clemens, Bob Gibson, Bob Feller, Lefty Grove, Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Warren Spahn, and Grover Cleveland Alexander)....as you alluded to, Peter, I also need to see Kershaw bring some of that dominance to the post season, because, quick glance, all of those other names I mentioned won at least one World Series in their careers (if it was played). If Walter Johnson could win one on that horrible Senators team, then Kershaw has no excuses. If he can't win at least one ring on a team that spends $250 million a year on payroll, and has another ace in Zack Greinke, my opinion of him will dip.

BUT, I can compare their careers to this point, and I feel pretty safe in saying we're witnessing one of the all-time greats right now. I don't see Kershaw having a Dwight Gooden or Denny McClain downfall. I hope that he doesn't have an essentially career-ending injury, like a J.R. Richard, or Herb Score. What happens going forward we'll find out in time. But Kershaw has been absolutely dominant.

And this little beauty rests in my safe deposit box, going up in value: