Star BB Club CdV

trdcrdkid · #1 08-26-2015, 09:54 PM

Jay --

This photo appears on page 30 of the Spring 1984 issue of the SABR publication "The National Pastime", a pictorial issue on Baseball in the Nineteenth Century. There it is identified as "two Brooklyn Stars, ca. 1870, of whom the one on the right is Candy Cummings". The uniforms look almost identical to the ones in your picture, albeit with black pants rather than white, though I don't know how common such elements might have been for clubs with the "Star" name. But that's my best guess. The 2013 book "Base Ball Founders" has a 23-page history of the Star Base Ball Club of Brooklyn, but without any pictures, alas.

oldjudge · #2 08-26-2015, 11:58 PM

Thanks guys! The geography reminds me of my drives through Pennsylvania so I will take a shot with the local historical society. I'll let you know if I make any progress.

h2oya311 · #3 08-27-2015, 01:23 AM

The stars are upside down in David's image, but right side up in Jay's. I think they are different teams, personally. Plus the issue with the pants. Just my observation, but I love the image(s)...

sago · #4 08-27-2015, 01:34 AM

I think the mountains in the background rule out Brooklyn. It looks as if the photos were taken at a quarry or mine of some sort.

oldjudge · #5 08-27-2015, 03:37 AM

Interestingly, if you look between the fourth and fifth players there appears to be a policeman on the "field" level. I agree that it looks like a quarry or an open pit mine that possibly was smoothed out to use as a field. The factory and other buildings on the upper level might have been used to process what came from the most mine. I know that limestone and coal came from the area. It doesn't look like coal though.

oldjudge · #6 08-27-2015, 03:59 AM

After a little research the building on the upper level looks similar to some images I have found of a smelter. Virden, IL was a mining area, but for only coal, as far as I can tell. Sunbury, PA had coal, but also limestone, and more importantly lead and zinc, both of which are smelted. The picture below is of a smelter. The tall smokestack is what struck me.

oldjudge · #7 08-27-2015, 04:00 AM

Compare it to the CdV

yoyot1 · #8 08-27-2015, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h2oya311

The stars are upside down in David's image, but right side up in Jay's. I think they are different teams, personally. Plus the issue with the pants. Just my observation, but I love the image(s)...

It looks like the 3rd, 6th, and 9th stars are upside down in the CdV as well. Maybe the 1st as well.

the-illini · #9 08-27-2015, 08:41 AM

As an Illinois resident Jay, I can tell you that it is likely not Virden. It is just south of the state capital of Springfield and that area would not have a rolling hill of that size like the one you see in the CdV

#10 08-27-2015, 09:19 AM

There was a California CDV that was sold at auction a year or so ago possibly identified as the Eureka Blue Stars ca. 1880's (if memory serves me). I agree with the mining theory as the fans seem to be standing on slag heaps, and the baseball diamond looks like it was strip mined to bedrock, or a good sized cut. Not saying it is California, but it may be another possibility.

Here's the link to the California CDV with players in uniforms. Obviously the players in your photo & this one have different colored ballcaps: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=183660&page=3

JustinD · #11 08-27-2015, 10:24 AM

I did an image search based on the original REA auction in 2008 for this card and really found nothing -

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...2008/1163.html

One nice lead I have is from a very nicely written thesis detailing the Montana Mines leagues called "Joy in Minersville" located here -

http://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/view...10&context=etd

So many teams used the name "stars" in the 1800's it could be close to impossible to locate. However, the reference used in this paper on page 69 is 143 "SC 783, Star Baseball Club Records, Montana Historical Society Archives, Helena Montana."

If you really want to dig, you may want to see if they have any photos for comparison. The name and the fact they were in a mine league is a good start.

bmarlowe1 · #12 08-27-2015, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Jay --

This photo appears on page 30 of the Spring 1984 issue of the SABR publication "The National Pastime", a pictorial issue on Baseball in the Nineteenth Century. There it is identified as "two Brooklyn Stars, ca. 1870, of whom the one on the right is Candy Cummings". The uniforms look almost identical to the ones in your picture, albeit with black pants rather than white, though I don't know how common such elements might have been for clubs with the "Star" name. But that's my best guess. The 2013 book "Base Ball Founders" has a 23-page history of the Star Base Ball Club of Brooklyn, but without any pictures, alas.

FWIW, It is well known that this guy is absolutely not Candy Cummings. That issue of "The National Pastime" has quite a few ID errors, all from the same source.

[/quote]

oldjudge · #13 09-16-2015, 01:23 PM

I thought I would update the thread. Of the five possible "Star BB Club" locations, the one that seemed the most promising was the Sunbury, PA one. With that in mind I contacted the Northumberland County Historical Society; Northumberland is the county that Sunbury is in. I spoke to a very nice gentleman, explained what I was trying to identify, and sent him an image of the CdV. He made copies and distributed ithem to all the members of the Board of Directors of the historical society. The board studied and discussed the image and the news was good:

" Consensus of the Sunbury residents on our board is that the photo was taken in Sunbury and they believe the building in the background is the old railroad roundhouse."

So, I guess that what we have is the Star BB Club of Sunbury, PA

ramram · #14 09-17-2015, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I thought I would update the thread. Of the five possible "Star BB Club" locations, the one that seemed the most promising was the Sunbury, PA one. With that in mind I contacted the Northumberland County Historical Society; Northumberland is the county that Sunbury is in. I spoke to a very nice gentleman, explained what I was trying to identify, and sent him an image of the CdV. He made copies and distributed ithem to all the members of the Board of Directors of the historical society. The board studied and discussed the image and the news was good:

" Consensus of the Sunbury residents on our board is that the photo was taken in Sunbury and they believe the building in the background is the old railroad roundhouse."

So, I guess that what we have is the Star BB Club of Sunbury, PA

I'm perplexed, a roundhouse did not need or have a smoke stack. It absolutely looks like a mining location, with the spoil piles, etc, but that building looks nothing like a roundhouse.

Rob M.

oldjudge · #15 09-17-2015, 10:19 AM

I found this on line. It's from 40 years later (1907). It's not the same, but similar. Over the 40 years the building could have had some significant makeovers

btcarfagno · #16 09-17-2015, 10:30 AM

The unusual top to the large smokestack looks like a match, as do the myriad chimneys throughout the building or buildings.

Tom C

smokelessjoe · #17 09-17-2015, 10:38 AM

Here is an image I found online with the following notes: Striking workers during the violent year of 1877 often targeted the key properties of companies against which they were striking for arson and sabotage. The Round House at Pittsburgh was a hub of railroad activity and one of the company's most expensive properties.

steve B · #18 09-18-2015, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramram

I'm perplexed, a roundhouse did not need or have a smoke stack. It absolutely looks like a mining location, with the spoil piles, etc, but that building looks nothing like a roundhouse.

Rob M.

Many buildings at the time had smokestacks, especially if they were outside urban areas.

The smokestack would have been from the steam plant, which provided both heat for the building and power for any powered machinery they had.
Heat for the roundhouse would have taken a lot of steam considering the size of those buildings. You really don't want the boilers of the engines feeezing and getting damaged. Some places also did repairs in the same building and could have used steam powered cranes and other tools.

And being a railroad they probably had a coal fired steam plant. So rather than spoil piles those would be cinder piles for the cinders from the coal plant as well as from the engines.

One of our local land marks was essentially destroyed by lightning late last year. The Hood smokestack was 100 feet tall, and the company made patent medicines.
http://lifefromtheroots.blogspot.com...lowell_22.html

Steve B

oldjudge · #19 09-18-2015, 10:54 AM

Leon-Thank goodness no one used that eraser in the past, or we never would have figured out who the team was.

Leon · #20 09-18-2015, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Leon-Thank goodness no one used that eraser in the past, or we never would have figured out who the team was.

I have always said that if the marks are/look period we should consider leaving them. I have left quite a few alone (as I would have the writing on that beauty too, of course).....

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