What Is the Median Scarcity for Old Judge Poses?

insidethewrapper · #1 11-27-2015, 02:00 PM

Of the 2500+ variations what would be the "range" from least amount of copies for any one pose to the most ? ( 1-100 ?)

slidekellyslide · #2 11-27-2015, 02:04 PM

My dad found 3 OJ's "in the wild" (new to the hobby)...early 1980s at an estate auction. I have found only 4 OJ's "in the wild" in probably 30 years of attending thousands of estate sales, garage sales, antique shows and flea markets. 50,000 is probably about right.

ctownboy · #3 11-27-2015, 04:49 PM

I have lived in Central Indiana for about 25 years now. About 20 years ago, I found nine Old Judges at an auction.

They were:

Anson, Chicago's
Ewing, fielding grounder
Rusie, pitching, hands at neck
Faatz, Cleveland
Klusman, Denver
Powell, Sioux City
Strauss, Omaha
Van Haltren, Chicago, NL
Williamson, Chicago, NL

About four years ago, I found one OJ common at an auction (I thought it sold for too much but I didn't have the OJ book at that time, so, who knows, it could have been a rare common).

Two years ago, there was a find of 17 OJ's in or around Indianapolis.

Of course, there was a LARGE find in 2006 by Dave of Dave's Vintage Cards of 215 OJ's originating somewhere in Indianapolis.

That is all I have found or heard of,

David

bbcard1 · #4 11-27-2015, 04:55 PM

I have a comiskey sliding, and a run of all poses Billy Sundays. It's been fun, but I'm probably happy where I am with them.

sandmountainslim · #5 11-27-2015, 05:01 PM

So all OJ owner's could safely say any given card they own is AS scarce if not more so than the T206 Wagner?

Joe_G. · #6 11-27-2015, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandmountainslim

So all OJ owner's could safely say any given card they own is AS scarce if not more so than the T206 Wagner?

If you define it as known N172 copies of same variation, yes. In most cases, you could add up all known variations of a given pose and be well below pop report of T206 Wagner.

Among the OJ finds that come to mind of better than a hundred cards . . .

Dave Levin 2004 Oregon Find � 1400 OJs
Dave Levin 2006 Indy Find � 215 OJs
Goldin Auction 2013 Cambridge Find � 170 OJs (many other cards outside of OJ)

CW · #7 11-27-2015, 06:42 PM

Uh oh, 20 posts and no cards shown.

Here's a new arrival (I only have 6 OJs, no HOFers yet).

garymc · #8 04-11-2017, 08:18 AM

I have one "Old Judge" in my type collection. I picked this player because he was on the original 1903 Highlander team. I'm always looking in the bigger auctions for another pose to compliant and compare with my card. love the history of the cards, has a wonderful energy just holding one !!!!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151843924@N04/albums

effe · #9 04-11-2017, 08:39 AM

My Milwaukee OJ collection currently is up to 22 different players/poses. I haven't been fussy about condition so the hunt has been a little easier, although it has been over 3 years since my last addition.

If you don't mind me asking what do Fa and Fb stand for?

And if you'd like to check them out I have all of them scanned on my website linked below.

shernan30 · #10 04-11-2017, 11:34 AM

I felt like throwing in my totals.

I sit at 28 plus 1 N173 of Al Buckenberger. Reading through this thread yesterday and today has revitalized my interest in OJs. Now to track down a few more for my Columbus base ball connection set. Only 88 more player/team combos to find. I may even start on a 2nd pose of the Columbus Solons players.

oldjudge · #11 04-11-2017, 12:14 PM

John--Great cards! Fa and Fb represent two series of Old Judge cards issued by Goodwin and Co in 1888. They are characterized by the first two lines in the text at the bottom being "Old Judge/ Cigarettes". The difference is the type size. If you have a copy of the Old Judge book it is all explained and illustrated in there. If not, in the current Sterling Auction, Lot 11 is a nice clear Fb.

oldjudge · #12 04-11-2017, 03:37 PM

I did a little reading about the 1888 Milwaukee team in Dennis Pajot's great book " The Rise of Milwaukee Baseball". Most of the info contained below is from that book.
1888 was the first year of the Western Association. Milwaukee, one of the founding members, hired Jim Hart as its' manager. The following was the team put together to start the season.

1B: Andy Cusick--Came from Phil NL
2B: Pat Pettee--Came from Salem, Eastern League
SS: Tom Forster--Was on Milwaukee NWL team in 1887
3B: Joe Strauss-- ". "
LF: Bobby Lowe--Came from Eau Claire in NWL
CF: David Davin--Came from Portland
RF: Leech Maskrey--Was on Milwaukee NWL team in 1887
C: Frank Mills-- " "
P: Alex Ferson--Came from Manchester, New Eng. League
P: Jack Horner: Came from Hamilton, Int'l League
P: John Struck: Came from Little Rock, SW League
P: Bill Shenkel: Was on Milwaukee NWL team in 1887
Sub: William Fuller: Came from Kalamazoo
Sub: Ed Warner: Came from Hamilton, Int'l League

Prior to 1888 none of these players had an Old Judge card. In mid-May Alex Ferson was released and pitcher George Stephens was added from the Hiawatha Club of Detroit.
In early June David Davin was released for excessive drinking and pitcher Henry Heup was picked up from the local Milwaukee Welcomes. Davin's month plus with Milwaukee earned him three Old Judge poses, all extremely rare today.
In mid-June Milwaukee added Jimmy McAleer from Memphis of the Southern League. Although McAleer has no known Milwaukee card, he earned five Old Judge poses as a member of Cleveland in 1889.
In late-June, Milwaukee made what turned out to be a great trade. They gave John Struck and $1000 for a pitcher from Bloomington, IL, future HOFer Clark Griffith. Griffith has no known 1888 Milwaukee card; Struck has one with his name, but Joe Strauss' image. When we did the Old Judge book we let the image on the card determine whose card it was; owners of the Yum Yum"Anson" may disagree with this methodology.They may consider that Struck has a card in the Old Judge set, albeit a so far unique one.
During July, Henry Heup and Andy Cusick were released. Cusick's time with the team earned him five Old Judge poses, all major rarities.
In early August, with the team struggling, Hart made quite a few moves. They released Pat Pettee, Tom Forster, Ed Warner and his prom date Jack Horner, and George Stephens. Added were William Crossley (C) from Davenport, John McCabe (2B) from Davenport, Bert Wilson (P) from Fremont in Ohio, Albert Fisher (SS) from Crawfordsville, and George Winkleman (P), William Hawes (1B) and Joe Walsh (SS), all from the folded team in Minneapolis. Stephens had four Old Judge poses from his time in Milwaukee, all rare, even though he neither started nor ended the season with them. Horner and Warner both received some Old Judge poses. Horner appeared for New Haven in 1889 and earned some team change Old Judge variations, all more common than his Milwaukee cards, but still pretty scarce. Ed Warner, even though he wandered through baseball with his friend and battery mate Warner, has no known New Haven cards; his Milwaukee cards are very rare. Tom Forster appeared in several Old Judge issues. As a member of the Metropoloisns he had an 1886 Spotted Tie. He has a few scarce Milwaukee cards in 1888, and a team change card with Hartford in 1889. Winkelman and Hawes had 1888 Minneapolis cards, but no known Milwaukee cards. Walsh earned his first cards as a member of Omaha in 1889.
The last player move of the year was the release of Albert Fisher in late-August.
I find this chronology interesting as it puts some history to the cards. Hopefully, some Milwaukee fans will find it interesting too.

Joe_G. · #13 04-11-2017, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by effe

My Milwaukee OJ collection currently is up to 22 different players/poses. I haven't been fussy about condition so the hunt has been a little easier, although it has been over 3 years since my last addition.

If you don't mind me asking what do Fa and Fb stand for?

And if you'd like to check them out I have all of them scanned on my website linked below.

Great collection John, all your 22 Milwaukee OJs, 100%, date to 1889 which isn't surprising. If you have a lot of collecting years left, maybe you can set a stretch goal of obtaining an 1888 example. If and when you obtain it, cherish it

Here is a cheat sheet I've posted previously on the old board to help study the differences between Fa, Fb, and Fc. Note how you cannot trust the printed copyrights on the card. They sometimes match the year the card is issued, sometimes match the date of the negative, sometimes match neither. For example, an 1889 Fc card might have an 1888 copyright but be based on an 1887 photoshoot.

tiger8mush · #14 04-11-2017, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garymc

I have one "Old Judge" in my type collection. I picked this player because he was on the original 1903 Highlander team. I'm always looking in the bigger auctions for another pose to compliant and compare with my card. love the history of the cards, has a wonderful energy just holding one !!!!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151843924@N04/albums

Neat card Gary! I'm trying to get all of McGuire's poses (and variations) as well. Still a couple more to go ...

oldjudge · #15 11-27-2015, 02:04 PM

The low number is certainly one. The high number probably represents a common pose that was issued in 1887 and reissued in 1888-1890. I would guess that number is south of 100, but probably not a lot south, perhaps 80-90.

oldjudge · #16 11-27-2015, 02:10 PM

I still think 50,000 seems high. I wonder how many people on the board have any Old Judges.

Jobu · #17 11-27-2015, 02:23 PM

Is it time for a "What is Your OJ Number?" thread?

(Watch out Frank, the N guys are gunning for you!)

insidethewrapper · #18 11-27-2015, 03:31 PM

I know some have been graded more than once but here's the numbers from the graders " PSA 3,855 and SGC 8,855 = 12,710 graded.

Joe_G. · #19 11-27-2015, 03:33 PM

Some may remember a similar discussion last year (OJ survival rate of up to 50k cards).

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...d.php?t=196113

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

The low number is certainly one. The high number probably represents a common pose that was issued in 1887 and reissued in 1888-1890. I would guess that number is south of 100, but probably not a lot south, perhaps 80-90.

I agree that the most common OJ is likely around 100 and I place the first pose of George Myers in that category with both type A & B zero number cards, an Fb, and Fc. FWIW, my estimates were arrived at as follows:

no more than 40 cards from 1887 type A zero number
no more than 20 cards from 1887 type B zero number
no more than 15 cards from 1888 (Fb)
no more than 30 cards from 1889 (Fc)

This gives a total of 105 which I rounded down to 100 but could easily be less (70-100 would be good guesstimate) for pose 1. The same math was used on pose 2 & 3 and recommend that if you wish to collect all three poses of George Myers that you don't pass on the next pose 3 that surfaces (Fb only).

I should note that there are many examples of Fb cards with less than 15 examples. Fb Anson in street clothes may hit 15 while Anson in Uniform is 4 (or 5). Fb Deacon White poses 2 & 8 are maybe around 10 apiece while the other 7 are ~2-5.

There are many very tough poses. The largest population of new poses surfaced in 1888 and 1888 is likewise the year with the highest count for single year poses. These are generally very tough cards. These coupled with a handful of Script cards and 1889 California League cards together with the many recently added poses that are cropping variations (with ball / without ball) and you are able to pull the common poses that are known at ~100 copies down to the ~20 copy average.

bwbc917 · #20 11-27-2015, 04:27 PM

Fascinating info. Keep the theories coming.

sreader3 · #21 11-28-2015, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

I agree that the most common OJ is likely around 100 and I place the first pose of George Myers in that category with both type A & B zero number cards, an Fb, and Fc. FWIW, my estimates were arrived at as follows:

no more than 40 cards from 1887 type A zero number
no more than 20 cards from 1887 type B zero number
no more than 15 cards from 1888 (Fb)
no more than 30 cards from 1889 (Fc)

Thanks for the great information guys.

Joe, I collect the Denver team, which I gather is 1889 only. Can I glean from your post about Myers that roughly 30 copies of the most common Denver poses (e.g. some of the Silch poses) exist? Or would it be lower (e.g. due to the Brooklyn/Denver team change) or perhaps higher? Thanks. Scot

oldjudge · #22 11-28-2015, 11:52 AM

Scot--Based on my experience, 30 copies is very high for any Denver pose. I would put the correct number in the ballpark 15-20 range for the most common Denver pose.
Joe and I will do some chatting to try to arrive at a "unified" guess to your original question.

sreader3 · #23 11-28-2015, 03:37 PM

Thank you Jay.

Here is my experience with N172 Denvers. They are tough. At least I have one of each player.

Pose / Have? / Offered for sale* (since 2007)?

Dalrymple 113-1 No None
Darymple 113-2 Yes Multiple
Dalrymple 113-3 No None
Darnbrough 118-1 Yes Multiple
Darnbrough 118-2 No One
Dolan 126-1 Yes Multiple
Dolan 126-2 Yes Multiple
Fagan 151-1 Yes One
Healy 219-1 Yes One
Hoffman 228-1 No None
Hoffman 228-2 No None
Hoffman 228-3 No None
Hoffman 228-4 No None
Hoffman 228-5 Yes One
Klusman 265-1 No None
Klusman 265-2 Yes Multiple
Klusman 265-3 Yes Multiple
Klusman 265-4 Yes One
Klusman 265-5 No None
McClellan 304-1 No None
McClellan 304-3 Yes Multiple
McQuaid 318-1 Yes One
McQuaid 318-2 No None
McQuaid 318-3 Yes One
McQuaid 318-4 Yes One
McVey 321-1 No None
McVey 321-2 Yes One
McVey 321-3 Yes One
McVey 321-4 No None
McVey 321-5 No None
Rowe 393-1 No None
Rowe 393-2 Yes One
Rowe 393-3 No None
Silch 419-1 No One
Silch 419-3 Yes Multiple
Silch 419-4 Yes Multiple
Silch 419-5 Yes One
Treadway 463-1 Yes One

*What I have seen. Does not include lots.

RCMcKenzie · #24 11-28-2015, 05:50 PM

Here are 318-4 McQuaid Denver and 321-2 McVey Denvers from a lot from the recent Heritage auction. I don't know if they are included in your Denver census or not. When I was going through the lot, I stopped and looked at these and thought,"It seems like I don't see many Denvers that often"...

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