Here Is the Place, if any on this forum, for Gun Discussion

Topps206 · #1 12-06-2015, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

Fear does indeed drive the pro-gun crowd.

Fear of history repeating itself - take away the guns to more easily control the populous, as has happened throughout history. I would remind you that most people throughout history have not lived in freedom. The US is very unique.

Fear of the slippery slope. Ban assault rifles and what's next? The anti-gun crowd will not be satisfied with just a ban on assault rifles, they never have.

Fear of the Left who, inadvertently, limit freedom through attempts at doing what's best for all: health care, taxes, business regulations, education, welfare, and hell, even school lunches.

You can't legislate against evil. I hold no ill will toward the do-gooders, but they're terribly misguided in believing that they'll ever prevent evil from occurring. Assault weapons exist - the technology is here. You can't eliminate them any more than you can eliminate abortion or drugs.

We make people take classes and pass tests before they get behind the wheel of a car, maybe we can beef up the tests, I don't know. Better technology on the guns perhaps? Some way to prevent anyone but the owner of the gun from being able to use it?

I'm much more interested in the psychology of these people. What's in their heads? How did they become so screwed up? How do we find these people before they commit these evil acts?

Something has to change. You cannot keep things the way they are. Gun sales might spike, but they're not a deterrent, just like capital punishment doesn't stop murder in red states.

I feel that the notion of freedom in the United States is merely a mirage. If American supported freedom, they'd find alternative energy sources and not rely on Saudi Arabia, which has suppressed the freedoms of its citizens and committed numerous atrocities in human history. If we were for freedom, we didn't show it when we intervened in Latin American countries, ousted their leaders and supported dictators because it would help our own interests.

The right wants to lecture me on the Constitution, on the Second Amendment, well, allow me to lecture them on other aspects of Constitutional law.

.The religious freedom clause applies to people of all faiths, not just Christians. You have no legal or moral jurisdiction to ban Islam and to profile Muslims in this country.

.There is a separation of church and state in our Constitution. Those words verbatim are not mentioned, but it is implied. The freedom to practice any religion, or none at all. One cannot encroach on the other.

.Conservatives love the Constitution so much that they have discussed repealing the 14th amendment.

.Also repealing the 16th.

.Also repealing the 17th.

.No religious test shall be administered for office, yet it is on the books in certain state constitutions that an atheist like myself cannot run for office. Thankfully, I don't live in any of these states.

.Christianity is not established in our Constitution as a national religion, nor is this a Christian nation. There are more Christians here than any other faith, but it's not the official religion despite recent data indicating that conservatives are willing to scrap the First Amendment and turn this into a theocratic regime.

I understand that my anti-gun position is not popular with many. My point is that people on the right bring up the Second Amendment, yet they pick and they choose which parts of the Constitution they like to suit their narrative. They claim to love freedom, they claim to love the Constitution, yet I notice inconsistencies on their end.

tschock · #2 12-06-2015, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

My point is that people on the right bring up the Second Amendment, yet they pick and they choose which parts of the Constitution they like to suit their narrative. They claim to love freedom, they claim to love the Constitution, yet I notice inconsistencies on their end.

Yes, they do. And thanks for proving your own point.

And FWIW, you have no idea on my position on the other items you're referring to. But please infer all you like.

Topps206 · #3 12-06-2015, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tschock

Yes, they do. And thanks for proving your own point.

And FWIW, you have no idea on my position on the other items you're referring to. But please infer all you like.

I'm not referring to you specifically. I mean the right in general.

vintagetoppsguy · #4 12-06-2015, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

...nor is this a Christian nation.

Wow, your ignorance is appalling. If this isn't a Christian nation, then why is Christmas, a national holiday? What other religion has a day recognized as a national holiday? Just because you may choose not to celebrate Christmas, doesn't negate the fact our founding fathers declared it a federal holiday.

You talk about fear from the right, but the left has people so scared of the political correctness BS, that many people have even stopped saying Merry Christmas or have changed the name form Christmas to Holiday - Holiday Tree, Holiday Lights, Holiday Party.

No, it's Christmas, set aside for Christ. Again, you have the choice to celebrate it or not. There is no mandate to celebrate it, just as there is no mandate to pop fireworks on Independence Day. But to say this isn't a Christian nation when we have a federal holiday set aside for Christ is ignorant.

I didn't mean to get off topic, but when I see stupid crap I have to respond. Carry on with the gun talk.

Topps206 · #5 12-06-2015, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Wow, your ignorance is appalling. If this isn't a Christian nation, then why is Christmas, a national holiday? What other religion has a day recognized as a national holiday? Just because you may choose not to celebrate Christmas, doesn't negate the fact our founding fathers declared it a federal holiday.

You talk about fear from the right, but the left has people so scared of the political correctness BS, that many people have even stopped saying Merry Christmas or have changed the name form Christmas to Holiday - Holiday Tree, Holiday Lights, Holiday Party.

No, it's Christmas, set aside for Christ. Again, you have the choice to celebrate it or not. There is no mandate to celebrate it, just as there is no mandate to pop fireworks on Independence Day. But to say this isn't a Christian nation when we have a federal holiday set aside for Christ is ignorant.

I didn't mean to get off topic, but when I see stupid crap I have to respond. Carry on with the gun talk.

You might want to check on who the founding fathers were considering that Christmas was not declared a federal holiday until 1870 when Grant was in office, only 94 years after the signing of the Declaration.

If Christ existed, scholarly research has suggested that he wasn't even born on December 25 but rather around the Summer Solstice. It is because Pagan holidays were celebrated on Dec. 25 that that's when Christmas was celebrated that day, too.

As someone who is liberal, I see both sides of the PC debate.

On one hand, some people need thicker skin and there are those who get offended over the slightest little thing that it's ridiculous.

On the other hand, I see videos and read articles that espouse hate and calls for violence and destruction against so many people and so many different regions. Pastors blame the attacked rather than the attacker, and it's not only people on the internet making inappropriate comments, it's talk show hosts and sometimes candidates.

This is not a Christian nation. There are more Christians in this country than anybody else, but we have the luxury of freedom of and freedom from religion. You cannot establish Christianity as the national religion, nor can you do it at the state level because the incorporation doctrine in the Fourteenth Amendment means the Bill of Rights must also be followed by the states.

If this were a Christian nation, the founders could've put it in the Constitution. Many a times over the 200+ years has our Constitution been amended. Not once is there a specific mention of Christ or Christianity.

vintagetoppsguy · #6 12-07-2015, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

You might want to check on who the founding fathers were considering that Christmas was not declared a federal holiday until 1870 when Grant was in office, only 94 years after the signing of the Declaration.

If Christ existed, scholarly research has suggested that he wasn't even born on December 25 but rather around the Summer Solstice. It is because Pagan holidays were celebrated on Dec. 25 that that's when Christmas was celebrated that day, too.

As someone who is liberal, I see both sides of the PC debate.

On one hand, some people need thicker skin and there are those who get offended over the slightest little thing that it's ridiculous.

On the other hand, I see videos and read articles that espouse hate and calls for violence and destruction against so many people and so many different regions. Pastors blame the attacked rather than the attacker, and it's not only people on the internet making inappropriate comments, it's talk show hosts and sometimes candidates.

This is not a Christian nation. There are more Christians in this country than anybody else, but we have the luxury of freedom of and freedom from religion. You cannot establish Christianity as the national religion, nor can you do it at the state level because the incorporation doctrine in the Fourteenth Amendment means the Bill of Rights must also be followed by the states.

If this were a Christian nation, the founders could've put it in the Constitution. Many a times over the 200+ years has our Constitution been amended. Not once is there a specific mention of Christ or Christianity.

Christ existed. To debate that is ridiculous. Even other major religions (Judaism, Islam) acknowledge he existed. Most scholars and even most atheists acknowledge he existed. Now, whether or not you choose to believe he was who he said he was is up to you.

There are many mentions of God throughout the important historical documents of the United States. There are Christian symbols and Christian scripture on many government buildings (many in Washington) throughout the United States. The same can't be said for other religions. We have it written on our currency. Many presidents have sworn their oath on the Bible. I could go on and on and on.

I look at my Calendar here at work and I see holidays of other religions, but they are not Federal Holidays - nothing for Judaism, nothing for Islam, nothing for Buddhism, etc. The Christian faith is the only faith with a holiday recognized by the United States government.

No, Christianity may not be the established religion but, when according to you own words, "There are more Christians in this country than anybody else" then I would say that makes us a Christian nation.

It would be like me saying that "We're not a nation of gun owners." Of course we're a nation of gun owners. You can choose not to own one just as you can choose not to practice Christianity, but overall, yes, we are a nation of gun owners.

If you want to continue this debate (or the one on guns), please put your full name in your post as required per board rules.

I'll leave you with this - the NYC skyline Christmas, 1956.

vintagetoppsguy · #7 12-07-2015, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

There are Christian symbols and Christian scripture on many government buildings (many in Washington) throughout the United States. The same can't be said for other religions.

Oh, and if you like, we can have a study on the Biblical Scripture and other Christian inscriptions that are displayed on historic buildings and other monuments in Washington and throughout the US. You better equip yourself though because I certainly am.

Leon · #8 12-07-2015, 07:55 AM

The policy of the board is no politics and no religion discussions. If you are going to get into any kind of debate your full name really needs to be in your post. I suggest putting it in your signature with a period or hyphen so it won't be searchable. If you don't then you are going to be limited in what you can say on the board. Nothing personal, same rules for everyone. BTW, I don't kown about this being a Christian country but it is founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

You might want to check on who the founding fathers were considering that Christmas was not declared a federal holiday until 1870 when Grant was in office, only 94 years after the signing of the Declaration.

If Christ existed, scholarly research has suggested that he wasn't even born on December 25 but rather around the Summer Solstice. It is because Pagan holidays were celebrated on Dec. 25 that that's when Christmas was celebrated that day, too.

As someone who is liberal, I see both sides of the PC debate.

On one hand, some people need thicker skin and there are those who get offended over the slightest little thing that it's ridiculous.

On the other hand, I see videos and read articles that espouse hate and calls for violence and destruction against so many people and so many different regions. Pastors blame the attacked rather than the attacker, and it's not only people on the internet making inappropriate comments, it's talk show hosts and sometimes candidates.

This is not a Christian nation. There are more Christians in this country than anybody else, but we have the luxury of freedom of and freedom from religion. You cannot establish Christianity as the national religion, nor can you do it at the state level because the incorporation doctrine in the Fourteenth Amendment means the Bill of Rights must also be followed by the states.

If this were a Christian nation, the founders could've put it in the Constitution. Many a times over the 200+ years has our Constitution been amended. Not once is there a specific mention of Christ or Christianity.

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