Is Dahlen a lock ????? VS others at position why not ??

rats60 · #1 12-08-2015, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

I'm unimpressed by the low OPS+ for Hodges at his position and at Ebbets.

OPS+ is supposed to be adjusted for the park. I don't see how an OPS + of 120 and a fielding percentage of .992 is bad, but an OPS + of 110 and a fielding percentage of .927 is a lock for the hof. I think that Hodges is more deserving than Dahlen when you consider character and managing. Hodges not only took a laughing stock Mets franchise to world champions, he made the expansion Senators respectable.

darwinbulldog · #2 12-08-2015, 10:15 AM

Someday, Man. Someday. Then the late Mr. Sawyer and I will share a bottle of champagne.

Topps206 · #3 12-08-2015, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

OPS+ is supposed to be adjusted for the park. I don't see how an OPS + of 120 and a fielding percentage of .992 is bad, but an OPS + of 110 and a fielding percentage of .927 is a lock for the hof. I think that Hodges is more deserving than Dahlen when you consider character and managing. Hodges not only took a laughing stock Mets franchise to world champions, he made the expansion Senators respectable.

It's position adjustment. Dahlen a shortstop, Hodges a first baseman. Ebbets was a small park. Dahlen was a star in the Deadball Era.

dougscats · #4 12-08-2015, 11:28 AM

Gil was my idol as a youth though I didn't see him play much, mostly when he was finished as a NY Met.

I did see him hit three balls out of the Polo Grounds in a double-header, I guess it was '62. The last one was right down the line, above the foul pole, over the roof. The umpires deliberated before calling it fair. I learned later that Drysdale, with a 10-0 lead, purportedly grooved it for his old teamie.

I also saw him close up in Leemark Lanes, a Brooklyn bowling alley. He did have huge hands!

I've personally rooted/campaigned for him for the h-o-f for so long now that I'm disgusted and fed up, remembering last year's vote.
I read on Net54 awhile back that Ted Williams, who finished second to him for 1969 manager of the year, and Earl Williams, who lost to him in the World Series, actively campaigned against him.
You'd think Tom Seaver, who venerated Gil, would now stand up for him.

As far as belonging, his stats are close to Cepeda and Perez if I remember correctly, and he did lose a year or so due to the war. And besides his fielding, he was also a teammate who quietly had Jackie Robinson's back.
But what has to put him in the h-o-f is his managing of the '69 Miracle Mets.

I've been watching baseball for 60 years now, and that was the single greatest managerial season I've ever seen. Every move he made was right. Look at their roster--they were a team that was greater than the sum of their parts--and he was their leader.
I've studied baseball history all my life; what manager ever had a better year than that one? In 1968 he took over a 10th place team that had lost 101 games the year before, and by '69 they'd won 100!
1969 was the year America put a man on the moon, and, let me tell you, the Mets were a longer shot.

PS: Whenever I'm leaving Brooklyn, going home to Breezy Point, I go over the Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge. Yup, Brooklyn named a bridge after him. Beloved is the word.

When, h-o-f?

Yoda · #5 12-08-2015, 12:10 PM

Growing up, the Dodgers were my favorite team and Gil, old #14, my most beloved player. I did see a couple of games with my dad at Ebbetts Field and watched in awe during one as he launched an opposite field homer over the Schaffer Beer sign in right. One other memory: It was the '52 or '53 subway series against, who else, the Yankees and Gil was in a terrible slump, hitless, I think, over the first 4 games. The priest in Gil' local parish asked the congregation during Mass to pray to relieve Gil's pain and give him a couple of bingles. Can't recall if it worked or not, but I guess when all else fails why not call on a higher power. Ted Z. you might recall this tiny bit of Hodges history even if you were rooting against the wrong team.

tedzan · #6 12-08-2015, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

Growing up, the Dodgers were my favorite team and Gil, old #14, my most beloved player. I did see a couple of games with my dad at Ebbetts Field and watched in awe during one as he launched an opposite field homer over the Schaffer Beer sign in right. One other memory: It was the '52 or '53 subway series against, who else, the Yankees and Gil was in a terrible slump, hitless, I think, over the first 4 games. The priest in Gil' local parish asked the congregation during Mass to pray to relieve Gil's pain and give him a couple of bingles. Can't recall if it worked or not, but I guess when all else fails why not call on a higher power. Ted Z. you might recall this tiny bit of Hodges history even if you were rooting against the wrong team.

It was the 1952 Dodgers vs Yankees W.S. where Gil went 0 for 21. It was one of my favorite W.S. since my guy, Johnny Mize beat the Dodgers "single-handedly" in a 7-game Series.

Nevertheless, I remember feeling real sad for Gil's slump.

I always liked Gil and this started in 1950 when I opened up a Bowman Gum waxpack and saw his smiling face pictured on his card.

Furthermore, when Gil hit 4 - HR's in one game that year (Aug 31st), he certainly was my hero.

Hey guys....keep these positive Gil Hodges stories rolling.

TED Z
.

Cozumeleno · #7 12-08-2015, 01:39 PM

I might killed for this, but here goes.

To be honest, I think the Hall is already diluted. I'm fully aware of the small % of all players that are in, but when I hear names like Bert Blyleven, Goose Gossage, etc., I just roll my eyes. These were very good (I mean, really, really good) players, but among the best ever? To be honest, I could go up 2-3 levels of guys ahead of them and question that they belong. If it were up to me, the Hall would be like 100-150 guys.

It gets to a point where you say enough is enough. To me, you can't stay on a ballot for years and have voters lobbied into voting for them so much that they ultimately get in. When I hear some of these guys doing interviews and essentially politicking to get in, it makes me sick.

You'll never get 100% of the people to agree on everything 100% of the time, but I'd much rather have a really exclusive Hall built solely of guys that are the slam dunks. If voters have to think about it, I'm not sure you should really be in. If voters spanning several years or in this case, decades, have to think of it, I'm almost positive your exclusion won't be the end of the world.

On guys like Dahlen, I'm not going to fault the committee. Yes, I want them to give players from that era equal consideration. But these are hardly the first guys voters to leave them out. I have a really hard time shaking my first at these guys who are in the majority of voters coming down on that side.

To Dahlen specifically, I can see how people think he should be in. That's particularly true if you measure him against several of the players already in and consider his stats at the time he retired. The problem, though, is that the longer this goes on, the lower the standards become. If he's been on the fence this long and so many voters have passed him up, it comes to a point where I'm not sure you belong. If he got in, I'd be fine with it. But it's just one of those situations where I have a hard problem getting that worked up over it.

vthobby · #8 12-08-2015, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

It was the 1952 Dodgers vs Yankees W.S. where Gil went 0 for 21. It was one of my favorite W.S. since my guy, Johnny Mize beat the Dodgers "single-handedly" in a 7-game Series.

Nevertheless, I remember feeling real sad for Gil's slump.

I always liked Gil and this started in 1950 when I opened up a Bowman Gum waxpack and saw his smiling face pictured on his card.

Furthermore, when Gil hit 4 - HR's in one game that year (Aug 31st), he certainly was my hero.

Hey guys....keep these positive Gil Hodges stories rolling.

TED Z
.

Ted and John (Yoda) and Doug (dougcats) the others who shared 1st hand Hodges stories....THANK YOU! I find it amazing that each of you remembers very clear details of these games that were oh so long ago. These memories could very well be unique as each of us sees and remembers the same event a little differently but the spirit and the love of the game clearly shine through in each of your memories. I swear, I'm going to invent a time machine someday.....1st Stop: Ebbets Field, 2nd stop Coogan's Bluff! 3rd stop: Shibe park!!!!! Oh man that would be cool!

Funny how some (and we all know who) will try to lower the standards of a guy who played 1B as opposed to SS or another position. Gil Hodges was born and built to play 1B just as Wagner was born with the left side of the infield in his genes. To try and say a guy should be elected because he played SS is like comparing apples to oranges. I for one am quite sick of hearing about Dahlen's interpositional quadratic equational aptitude and superior athletic exploits. He is not a Hall of Famer and was certainly no lock.

Peace, Mike

Topps206 · #9 12-08-2015, 05:28 PM

Hodges is no slam dunk and position adjustment does matter. Dahlen did what was expected of him as a shortstop and more. Hodges had nice but not HOF worthy career.

Topps206 · #10 12-08-2015, 02:13 PM

I would say Dahlen is more worthy because advanced metrics favor him at a touger position in a tougher era.

I think Blyleven is one of the best pitchers ever. Gossage is one of the best relievers ever. I think that someone can quietly put up a Hall of Fame career. Just because they weren't always in the spotlight or not seen/marketed as a major star does not negate their worthiness to me.

darwinbulldog · #11 12-08-2015, 02:20 PM

Reasonable people can disagree on how big the Hall should be. If you want to limit it to the top 150, then sure, leave out Dahlen and Gossage, but no way can I think of 150 guys better than Blyleven. Not saying he's in the first tier or anything like that, but I think he easily makes it into one of the first 150 slots, probably in the top half.

Cozumeleno · #12 12-08-2015, 02:39 PM

That's interesting - and part of the reason these lists are fun. There are a lot of good opinions on it.

If I take a list of some of the great pitchers, like the all-time wins list from B-R, I can probably cherry pick at least 30-35 pitchers ahead of Blyleven from here. I might take him ahead of a few guys that have more wins, but guys below him like Gibson, Marichal, Roberts, Palmer, Feller, Pedro, Koufax, and others probably leapfrog him for me. That's before you even get to any position guys.

I'd be hard-pressed to put him into the top 150 of all-time and even more so the upper half of that. But that's why these sorts of things are great to look at and I know people have a far better opinion of him than I do.

packs · #13 12-08-2015, 02:41 PM

It doesn't matter to me how good a HOF player was when it comes to voting. If you're not a historian and you consult Wikipedia for advice on how to cast your vote, you shouldn't be voting in this type of election.

Topps206 · #14 12-08-2015, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Reasonable people can disagree on how big the Hall should be. If you want to limit it to the top 150, then sure, leave out Dahlen and Gossage, but no way can I think of 150 guys better than Blyleven. Not saying he's in the first tier or anything like that, but I think he easily makes it into one of the first 150 slots, probably in the top half.

Except numbers are suggesting that Dahlen is better than many others already in. It's clear he's superior to Bobby Wallace and Joe Tinker. He's also comparable to Hughie Jennings and George Davis. Out of his top ten similarity scores on Baseball-Reference, more than half are in Cooperstown. Dahlen is also 10th all time for shortstops when it comes to JAWS.

Cozumeleno · #15 12-08-2015, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

Except numbers are suggesting that Dahlen is better than many others already in. It's clear he's superior to Bobby Wallace and Joe Tinker. He's also comparable to Hughie Jennings and George Davis. Out of his top ten similarity scores on Baseball-Reference, more than half are in Cooperstown. Dahlen is also 10th all time for shortstops when it comes to JAWS.

Yeah, I certainly agree that there's a better case for him than some already in. But that's sort of the problem as I see it. I think errors have already been made in voting people in, so instead of making the standards a little harder, we're forced to compare him with people (that may not deserve to be in) and say that's why he should be in. Next, it'll be guys like Dave Steib and Bret Saberhagen (again, both very good). If the standards keep going down, where does it really end?

rats60 · #16 12-08-2015, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

Except numbers are suggesting that Dahlen is better than many others already in. It's clear he's superior to Bobby Wallace and Joe Tinker. He's also comparable to Hughie Jennings and George Davis. Out of his top ten similarity scores on Baseball-Reference, more than half are in Cooperstown. Dahlen is also 10th all time for shortstops when it comes to JAWS.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Jennings is in because he's a manager. Davis is clearly a better hitter Ops+ 121 to 110 and fielder .940 to .927. Wallace and Tinker are questionable selections, but much better defensively .938 each to .927, but worse hitters 110 to 105 to 96. Tinker is in because of a poem. If I was to pick between Wallace and Dahlen, I'd go with the better defensive ss.

I don't trust the war or jaws numbers for Dahlen. He gets a lot of value for committing a lot more errors than his contemporaries. I don't think we can go by assists and outs for a player with so little data. It's not like we can watch film of his games and see if he had better range than the above players. He got very little support from early hof voters, many who saw him play. They didn�t feel he was a hofer. It's not like he was even getting 5 or 10% of the votes. I would trust them over a 21st century researcher trying to put a value on his career.

Cozumeleno · #17 12-08-2015, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

I would say Dahlen is more worthy because advanced metrics favor him at a touger position in a tougher era.

I think Blyleven is one of the best pitchers ever. Gossage is one of the best relievers ever. I think that someone can quietly put up a Hall of Fame career. Just because they weren't always in the spotlight or not seen/marketed as a major star does not negate their worthiness to me.

That's a great point about doing it quietly. Those guys were certainly very good players. Part of it, for me, is finding guys that were at one point, a dominant performer leading their position. I just don't see that with Blyleven. He won 20 games only once, never won a Cy Young (and was only ever in the top five in voting three times), was only a two-time All-Star, etc. I do think there's value in some of the advanced metrics like WAR, WHIP, etc., where he excelled a little and he was one of the best strikeout pitchers of his generation, too. Very good pitcher that was certainly understated as you mentioned. I just think it gets hard when you're comparing him to others that maybe didn't pitch as long, but were more dominant over a shorter stretch.

tedzan · #18 12-08-2015, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

OPS+ is supposed to be adjusted for the park. I don't see how an OPS + of 120 and a fielding percentage of .992 is bad, but an OPS + of 110 and a fielding percentage of .927 is a lock for the hof. I think that Hodges is more deserving than Dahlen when you consider character and managing. Hodges not only took a laughing stock Mets franchise to world champions, he made the expansion Senators respectable.

Hey guy

You presented a very logical argument here for the Hodges vs Dahlen comparison with respect to their OPS+ and Fielding %.

However, it has become apparent that "Topps206" doesn't do logic. For whatever reasons....he has some emotional "hang-ups" regarding Hodges.

Dougscats

Great story....well said of Gil Hodges. Perhaps someday in the not so far off future, Gil will be in the HOF.

TED Z
.

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