Timeline of Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis cards). Show us your Demmitt & O'Hara cards

[Cozumeleno]

To the number in circulation, the PSA and SGC pop reports show about 265 Demmitts and 245 O'Haras.

I'd be curious to know how many people think are out there ungraded. Certainly seems like there could be more than 300 of each out there.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

To the number in circulation, the PSA and SGC pop reports show about 265 Demmitts and 245 O'Haras.

I'd be curious to know how many people think are out there ungraded. Certainly seems like there could be more than 300 of each out there.

Actually, I'm being conservative with my...."as many as 300 Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations"....statement.

I have (or have had) put together 2 "hybrid" 521-card T206 sets in ungraded form. And, I know of 6 near complete T206 sets (which include St Louis
Demmitt & O'Hara cards) that are ungraded.

Furthermore, I'm sure there are many more of such T206 sets out there.


TED Z
.

[Laxcat]

The O'hara STL I had is now in the hands of another board member. It is raw and I believe will stay that way. So that is one more to add to the count. As for origin: no idea. I like to think one of the print guys was a time traveler and wanted to mess with people in the future. He's probably reading this post right now, feeding his pet polar bear, and laughing.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Like Leon , I think fewer than 10 percent of the collecting population knows about Net54 and I think probably the same percentage of cards are actually graded.

The percentage probably goes up quite a bit for rare cards but still probably hits in the 25 percent range at best, maybe higher for the big four of T206s. I know of 4 1952 Topps Mantles in albums within 60 miles of me all owned by collectors over 60 that have no interest in TPGs.

Just an uneducated guess?

[esd10]

The t213-2 has the demmitt with the st Louis uniform from the polar bear.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Actually, I'm being conservative with my...."as many as 300 Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations"....statement.

I have (or have had) put together 2 "hybrid" 521-card T206 sets in ungraded form. And, I know of 6 near complete T206 sets (which include St Louis
Demmitt & O'Hara cards) that are ungraded.

Furthermore, I'm sure there are many more of such T206 sets out there.


TED Z
.

Yeah, I think that there are probably quite a few raw ones out there. You know of six alone. That number could be closer to 400-500 for each.

[Sean]

scan0005.jpg


Hey Ted, this is the worst 3.5 I've ever seen.

[mpemulis]

A little foxing on Demmitt...

[tedzan]

Illustrated here are the 66 subjects that American Lithographic selected to expand into the 460 series. I originally posted this simulation regarding the SOVEREIGN 350 "apple green" cards.

This arrangement is also applicable to the POLAR BEAR (PB) print run of the 350/460 series cards. I've identified Simon Nicholls and Bob Rhoades as possible replacements. Their MLB careers
ended prior to the PB print run of this series. My theory is that the St Louis cards of Demmitt and O'Hara replaced these two guys on this sheet in the early phases of this PB print run.


Note....if your screen shows only 6 cards across, reduce its image in order to form a sheet display of 12 cards across by 6 rows down.


v................................................. ....... Super-Prints .................................................. ...v.............................................. .................................................. ................... Nicholls







... Rhoades ...



TED Z
.

[sycks22]

O'hara will come out to play

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Sean

Attachment 214812


Hey Ted, this is the worst 3.5 I've ever seen.

id say!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Actually, I'm being conservative with my...."as many as 300 Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations"....statement.

I have (or have had) put together 2 "hybrid" 521-card T206 sets in ungraded form. And, I know of 6 near complete T206 sets (which include St Louis
Demmitt & O'Hara cards) that are ungraded.

Furthermore, I'm sure there are many more of such T206 sets out there.


TED Z
.

My 520 set is also ungraded. My question on the pop numbers though would be how many of those are duplicates from the cards being resubmitted?

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

To the number in circulation, the PSA and SGC pop reports show about 265 Demmitts and 245 O'Haras.

I'd be curious to know how many people think are out there ungraded. Certainly seems like there could be more than 300 of each out there.

I do think Demmits and OHara's are prime "crack and resubmit for a higher grade" candidates, which could inflate the number on the registry.

I have one of each. Both are now raw (a well-derserved A and a well deserved 10) but both have been slabbed in the past. I still have the flips.

[mybuddyinc]

Raw .................

Demmitt.jpg

OHara.jpg

[mybuddyinc]

"American Litho (ALC) started their 1st press run of POLAR BEAR (PB) cards circa Spring/Summer of 1910. ALC printed the PB backs on 140 subjects of
the 350-only Series.

The 2nd press run (circa Summer 1910) was a major one. ALC printed PB backs on the 64 subjects from the 350/460 Series. In this press run, it is my
contention that ALC printed the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis variations.

Furthermore, this PB press run of 66 subjects was printed in greater quantities than the 350-only series (and the subsequent 460-only Series) printing
of PB cards. Proof of this theory is evident in T206 surveys, POP report data, and everyday Ebay listings of PB cards."

------------------

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems backwards to me. In my thinking it would fit better that the StL variations would have been done in the 1st press run of PB's circa Spring/Summer of 1910, when both players still might have been with StL. By the second PB run, about Summer 1910, both were in EL.

Also "if" they were from the 350/460 there would be more of them, if theory that 350/460 were produced in greater quantities.

As far as "How Many ??", don't know. It might be interesting to compare the 350 vs 350/460 run numbers. Maybe comparing the number of F. Smith or Kleinow, catching, 350 vs. 350/460.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by mybuddyinc

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems backwards to me. In my thinking it would fit better that the StL variations would have been done in the 1st press run of PB's circa Spring/Summer of 1910, when both players still might have been with StL. By the second PB run, about Summer 1910, both were in EL.

Also "if" they were from the 350/460 there would be more of them, if theory that 350/460 were produced in greater quantities.

As far as "How Many ??", don't know. It might be interesting to compare the 350 vs 350/460 run numbers. Maybe comparing the number of F. Smith or Kleinow, catching, 350 vs. 350/460.

1st......My "timeline" regarding the 1st printing of the POLAR BEAR backs on the 350-only Series cards may be somewhat off (this press run may have occurred earlier).
Whatever. But, the lesser quantity of PB cards (approx. 50 per subject) that were printed of the 350-only Series makes it improbable for the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis
variations to belong in this print group.
The numbers of PB cards (150+ per subject) that were printed of many of the 350/460 Series guys closely coincides with the numbers of St. Louis versions of Demmitt
or O'Hara cards that are known.

2nd......Furthermore, in the subsequent printing of the T213-2 set (1914-16), both the Demmitt (New York) image and the Demmitt (St Louis) images were printed in
it. The production of this set utilized sheets printed originally in the T206 set. Therefore, I really doubt that both these Demmitt images were on the same sheet in the
same press run.






TED Z
.

[jp1216]

Sold my Demmitt, but this O'Hara is on BST....


I'd guess that at least 10% have been resubmitted or crossed over for the POP report numbers.

[mybuddyinc]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1st......My "timeline" regarding the 1st printing of the POLAR BEAR backs on the 350-only Series cards may be somewhat off (this press run may have occurred earlier).
Whatever. But, the lesser quantity of PB cards (approx. 50 per subject) that were printed of the 350-only Series makes it improbable for the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis
variations to belong in this print group.
The numbers of PB cards (150+ per subject) that were printed of many of the 350/460 Series guys closely coincides with the numbers of St. Louis versions of Demmitt
or O'Hara cards that are known.

2nd......Furthermore, in the subsequent printing of the T213-2 set (1914-16), both the Demmitt (New York) image and the Demmitt (St Louis) images were printed in
it. The production of this set utilized sheets printed originally in the T206 set. Therefore, I really doubt that both these Demmitt images were on the same sheet in the
same press run.




TED Z
.

Thanks, Ted, that makes sense. I wasn't questioning your original statement, just read it some what incorrectly (which for me, isn't to hard ). You're numbers for 350 vs. 350/460 makes it all come together for me, and it makes perfect logic.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

My sales data support your premise that the populations of Demmitt (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) are more in line with the Polar Bear (PB) populations of 350/460 regular print subjects than the PB populations of 350-only or 460-only subjects.

Generally speaking, the PB sales frequency of 350-only subjects is about 2X lower, and the PB sales frequency of 460-only subjects is some 4X lower, than the PB sales frequency of 350/460 regular print subjects [which, again, are in line with the Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) sales frequencies].

I'm not sure this leads inescapably to the conclusion that Demmit (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) were printed contemporaneously with 350/460 regular print subjects, but I agree that this fact and the others you cite provide some circumstantial evidence.

[One reason I am hesitant to draw a firm conclusion is that several Midwestern subjects -- Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) come to mind – seem to have been printed in much higher numbers with Polar Bear than other subjects from their subject groups. It seems to me not out of the realm of possibility that Midwestern bias, rooted in the fact that Polar Bear was sourced in Ohio, could help explain why Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) share the 350/460 regular print population profile].

On another front, I fully concur with you that there are more than 200 copies of each of these guys around – probably more like 300 per. When I “guesstimated” back in 2006 that there might be about 200 copies of each, my premise was that the Polar Bear population was roughly the same for all subjects with which that back exists. We now know that’s not true, and that Demmitt (St. Louis) and O’Hara (St. Louis) are “uncommonly common” with Polar Bear.

Best wishes this holiday season my friend.

Scot

[Pat R]

I think one explanation could be that the Polar Bears might have been printed
separately at one of ALC's other printing facilities, I just can't see any reason
in going through the trouble of making new plates for the team change just
for the Polar Bear printing, however if they were printed at a different facility
Demmitt and O'Hara could have been with ST Louis at the time they were making
the plates for this facility.