Johnson, Mathewson, or Young? Which one do you think was the best?

rhettyeakley · #1 12-26-2015, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Out if thise 3 id say johnson, but pedro martinez and sandy kofaux would be right there with johnson imo

Johnson, he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time.

Koufax's name shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread! Statistically speaking he was a MAJOR disappointment for the first 6 years of his career (the only thing he had ever lead the league in was Wild Pitches), he then found his command had 2 pretty good seasons and then 4 absolutely amazing ones. I have never understood how that gets anyone in the "greatest ever" conversation.

bnorth · #2 12-26-2015, 05:33 PM

Never heard of a Johnson or Mathewson award but have heard of a Cy Young so I would give him the nod among those 3. Now the greatest of all time has 7 Cy Young awards.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 12-26-2015, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Never heard of a Johnson or Mathewson award but have heard of a Cy Young so I would give him the nod among those 3. Now the greatest of all time has 7 Cy Young awards.

One could make a case for Clemens, or Grove, if one did not go with one of the pre-WWI favorites. I can't see Koufax being in the discussion.

rhettyeakley · #4 12-26-2015, 05:42 PM

For more Modern players (forgetting about potential Steroid usage here mind you) the greatest would have to include some combination of Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Tom Seaver, and Greg Maddux with a few other names as potential candidates.

TexasLeaguer · #5 12-26-2015, 06:19 PM

I would include Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan among the greatest modern pitchers. Pre-war shout-outs should also go to Carl Hubbell, 3-Finger Brown, and James Creighton. Bob Feller was pre-war and post-war, but he's definitely one of the best.

I would rank Walter Johnson as the greatest of all-time, but could make an argument for Ruth. If I were picking teams in a sandlot game, I'd rather have Ruth than Johnson at pitcher.

btcarfagno · #6 12-26-2015, 05:44 PM

Pedro is the best I ever saw. For a short period he may have been the best ever. But over an entire career I don't think anyone compares to WaJo. The consistency and longevity of a Cy Young combined with the stuff of Nolan Ryan. Lethal combination.

Tom C

cardsfan73 · #7 12-26-2015, 05:48 PM

I would take anyone of the 3, but if forced to choose one it would be Mr. Johnson.

I agree that you could easily add Alexander to the group.

rhettyeakley · #8 12-26-2015, 05:53 PM

Walter Johnson's 1912 and 1913 seasons have to go down in history as potentially the greatest 2 consecutive seasons (relative to competition) in history, especially when not counting records of guys playing prior to 1890 (when winning 50 games was a real possibility!)

CMIZ5290 · #9 12-26-2015, 05:55 PM

Great input guys. Again, I was interested in opinions on these three guys. Obviously, there have been many great ones since then. I just always thought that these three were the originals for the standard off great pitchers of all time...My thoughts are the argument between Johnson and Matty, just my take...

Fred · #10 12-26-2015, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I was interested in opinions on these three guys.

I was trying to figure out what the heck pitchers other than Johnson, Mathewson and Young had to do with the topic question.

Well, the pitching award they give out is named after Cy Young. I don't see a Walter Johnson award or Christy Mathewson award being handed out. Oddly enough, of the three he's the one that didn't make it into the HOF as an original inductee in 1936. HOF vote%: Matty = 90.7%, Johnson = 83.6% and Young at 76.1% in 1937 - what a tough crowd...

However, I'd probably have to pick between Walter and Christy as the overall best of the three.

Walter does hold the record for lifetime shutouts (110) by a pretty large margin over the next guy (Matty is third at 79).

Matty had a better lifetime ERA and WHIP than Johnson (barely) and of the three he had a much better lifetime win%.

I like 'em all.... so, of the three, which has the highest price T206 portrait?

icollectDCsports · #11 12-26-2015, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

But over an entire career I don't think anyone compares to WaJo. The consistency and longevity of a Cy Young combined with the stuff of Nolan Ryan. Lethal combination.

Tom C

Agree and well said.

CMIZ5290 · #12 12-26-2015, 06:09 PM

Here are some comparable stats....

Mathewson 373-188, ERA 2.12, Innings pitched 4788
Johnson 417-279, ERA 2.17, Innings pitched 5914

Peter_Spaeth · #13 12-26-2015, 06:13 PM

Alexander 373-208. 2.56, 5190 IP. But don't forget he pitched through the 20s when ERAs were much higher than the deadball era. And remarkably, he didn't first pitch until he was 24 -- and he missed a year for WWI.

Touch'EmAll · #14 12-26-2015, 06:14 PM

Have there ever been any statistical extrapolation semi-educated best guesstimates of Wins/Losses or other career stats for Satchell Paige?

CW · #15 12-26-2015, 05:53 PM

Of the 3 posed by Kevin in the OP, I'd go with Johnson. Mathewson really shined when it counted most, the postseason, but Johnson never had the same opportunity due to being on weaker teams. Plus, if Ty Cobb says that Johnson had the most powerful arm in baseball, well... I'll just take Cobb's word for it.

And if the discussion expands into the best ever, it should definitely include a Mr. Leroy Robert "Satchel" Paige.

BeanTown · #16 12-26-2015, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Never heard of a Johnson or Mathewson award but have heard of a Cy Young so I would give him the nod among those 3. Now the greatest of all time has 7 Cy Young awards.

So if MLB came out with a Doc Gooden award now, that he would make a thread like this 100 years from now?

Cy Young with the length of his career along with the average amount of innings pitched per game, with many complete games should always been the discussion. He just shouldn't bein the discussion because some committee back in the day gave him an award.

Joshwesley · #17 12-26-2015, 06:33 PM

I'll take Walter Johnson

I think ty cobb said he was the toughest pitcher he faced.... And the kicker...

He has the best looking card in the t206 set.

The Johnson portrait.

Joshwesley · #18 12-26-2015, 06:34 PM

I'll take Walter Johnson

I think ty cobb said he was the toughest pitcher he faced.... And the kicker...

He has the best looking card in the t206 set.

The Johnson portrait.

My humble but accurate opinion

DeanH3 · #19 12-26-2015, 06:51 PM

Obviously all 3 are ATG's. However, just imagine if WaJo had a decent team behind him.

110 shutouts.

38 1-0 wins.
65 losses by shutouts with 26 of them 1-0 scores.

It's quite possible Johnson could have bested Young in wins if he had played for a good team.

jl9999 · #20 12-26-2015, 07:57 PM

I'd say Johnson is the best pitcher of the three. I'd also say his portrait is the best card of the three and for my money one of the 2 or 3 best looking cards ever printed in any set ever. Although Young's portrait is also quite nice.

John Leso

Joshwesley · #21 01-15-2016, 11:08 AM

I think Satchel Paige would do pretty well in this discussion thread.....

ullmandds · #22 01-15-2016, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshwesley

I think Satchel Paige would do pretty well in this discussion thread.....

seriously?

clydepepper · #23 01-15-2016, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

seriously?

Such a comparison would never be fair as Satchel's prime career stats are lost to history.

I would love to have more exposure to his stats and less to bonds and clemens.
.
.

khkco4bls · #24 01-15-2016, 01:55 PM

I still have to throw John Clarkson in there 328 -178 over 12 years with a 648 percentage 4536 innings. if he could only have pitched longer Like 17 to 22 years like they did god only knows what his stats would have been

clydepepper · #25 01-15-2016, 06:08 PM

Any comparison involving Clarkson should be prefaced by the fact that almost his entire career occurred before the pitching mound was moved back 10 feet 6 inches. Even I was faster from a shorter distance.
.
.

aro13 · #26 01-15-2016, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Actually, the quality of the other pitchers on the staff have a real, though indirect effect on the record of a given starting pitchers' record:

The burden of being the team's ace is not only that you are almost always going against the opponents' best, which means, on average, less offensive support, but also starts frequently moved up to get more total starts.

Back in the 'day', ace starters would routinely pitch on two days rest and even one in extreme situations. Lesser pitchers' starts would be passed over to accommodate more starts by the ace - plus those same aces would always be available for relief appearances on their day or days of rest.

All this definitely impacts great pitchers' records, so for Someone like Johnson to do all he did is even more amazing.

These points would be reflected by run support. If Walter Johnson got 2.1 runs a game support and the rest of the staff got 3.4 that would make sense. Aces do not always match up, because the schedules are not all the same. If you took a lineup of the best hitters in the game today that averaged 6 runs a game and gave them a pitching staff of Clayton Kershaw and 4 AAA level pitchers - Kershaw would be like 28-3 and the rest of the staff would probably finish around 20 games under .500. That would not make Kershaw any more impressive, because the rest of his staff stinks.

irishdenny · #27 12-27-2015, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Never heard of a Johnson or Mathewson award but have heard of a Cy Young so I would give him the nod among those 3. Now the greatest of all time has 7 Cy Young awards.

BeN...
Cy's Has the MoSt WiNs...
BuT He ALSo Has the MoST Losses!

As FiR Roger... He WaS a STuD,
But I CaN'T GeT PaSSeD the Physical displacements...
The HeiGHT of the MouND,
The Characteristics of the BaLLs & BaTs...

IT's JuST a Different Game ALL together!
THeY Were ALL JuST CReaTed To ThRoW
THaT SpHeRe PaST Anyone Who Would
ATTeMPT To HiT'em!

I JuST LoVe THiS GaMe!!!

I WouLD of LoVeD To oF SeeN a GaMe
BacK iN 1910... JoHNSoN vs MaTHewSoN...
JuST AwSoMe!!!

Back WHeN Jake Peavey Was iN HiS PRiMe,
I Saw HiM ProTecT HiS HoMe TurF
Against RoGeR and The YaNKs aT PETCO!
WHaT a Game...

Clemens Had iT ALL ThaT DaY...
AnD Jake GaVe'em HiS BeST !!!

in The EnD, RoGeR Bested Jake 2-1!

I CaN'T WaiT Ta See
WHaT Ta See WHaT The Mets
WiLL BRiNG To The TaBle NeXT YeaR!!!

Harvey, DeGrom, SynderGaard, Mats, & Wheeler!!!
NoT ReaDiN into the HYPe...
JuST WaNNa See Whats GONNa HaPPeN!!!

AnYHoW...

"BiG SiX" STiLL RuLeS iN My BooK!!!

bwbc917 · #28 12-27-2015, 03:17 PM

I'm impressed that it was page 4 before someone mentioned WAR. This discussion has been based on Wins, Losses, CG etc. Few Sabrmetricians in the crowd. Refreshing.

My vote is for Johnson. Weak team during times when A's, both Sox squads, then Yanks were dominant. Supposedly did not throw inside for fear of hitting someone.

Joshwesley · #29 12-27-2015, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishdenny

BeN...
Cy's Has the MoSt WiNs...
BuT He ALSo Has the MoST Losses!

As FiR Roger... He WaS a STuD,
But I CaN'T GeT PaSSeD the Physical displacements...
The HeiGHT of the MouND,
The Characteristics of the BaLLs & BaTs...

IT's JuST a Different Game ALL together!
THeY Were ALL JuST CReaTed To ThRoW
THaT SpHeRe PaST Anyone Who Would
ATTeMPT To HiT'em!

I JuST LoVe THiS GaMe!!!

I WouLD of LoVeD To oF SeeN a GaMe
BacK iN 1910... JoHNSoN vs MaTHewSoN...
JuST AwSoMe!!!

Back WHeN Jake Peavey Was iN HiS PRiMe,
I Saw HiM ProTecT HiS HoMe TurF
Against RoGeR and The YaNKs aT PETCO!
WHaT a Game...

Clemens Had iT ALL ThaT DaY...
AnD Jake GaVe'em HiS BeST !!!

in The EnD, RoGeR Bested Jake 2-1!

I CaN'T WaiT Ta See
WHaT Ta See WHaT The Mets
WiLL BRiNG To The TaBle NeXT YeaR!!!

Harvey, DeGrom, SynderGaard, Mats, & Wheeler!!!
NoT ReaDiN into the HYPe...
JuST WaNNa See Whats GONNa HaPPeN!!!

AnYHoW...

"BiG SiX" STiLL RuLeS iN My BooK!!!

Little known fact..
I hit a home run off peavy in high school..

Joshchisox08 · #30 12-27-2015, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshwesley

Little known fact..
I hit a home run off peavy in high school..

Quite the feet! Peavy pre-surgery was a BEAST!

robw1959 · #31 12-29-2015, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Never heard of a Johnson or Mathewson award but have heard of a Cy Young so I would give him the nod among those 3. Now the greatest of all time has 7 Cy Young awards.

The award was named after Young because the first year it was designated was the year of Cy Young's death, hence the honor of naming it after him.

rats60 · #32 12-27-2015, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Johnson, he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time.

Koufax's name shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread! Statistically speaking he was a MAJOR disappointment for the first 6 years of his career (the only thing he had ever lead the league in was Wild Pitches), he then found his command had 2 pretty good seasons and then 4 absolutely amazing ones. I have never understood how that gets anyone in the "greatest ever" conversation.

Sandy Koufax is the greatest pitcher I have ever seen and by a wide margin. I strongly disagree that Koufax was a major disappointment. I think that you don't understand how baseball worked in the 50s. Koufax was a bonus baby. As such, he couldn't pitch in the minors. He was so valuable to the Dodgers that they gave up a roster spot for 2 years to keep him. It wasn't until his 3rd year that he even started pitching meaningful innings. Just think of that as his minor league experience and by the time he hit his stride, the team was winning big.

1962, tied for 1st in NL, would have probably won World Championship except Koufax got hurt and couldn't finish the season.

1963 NL Champs, World Champs, Cy Young, MVP. WS MVP.

1964 Injuries kept him from having full season, but still good enough to get CY Young votes. May have even won NL Cy Young if there was one for each league.

1965 NL Champs, World Champs, Cy Young, 2nd in MVP, WS MVP. Koufax pretty much won the WS with shutouts in game 5 and game 7 on 2 days rest.

1966 NL Champs, CY Young, 2nd in MVP. Then retirement. Who knows what he would have done if he had continued to pitch.

As for the 3 pitchers here, Christy Mathewson got the most votes of the 3 in the original hof voting. Cy Young got the award named after him. Walter Johnson had the better career. If I had to pick one, I would go with Johnson.

Peter_Spaeth · #33 12-27-2015, 12:06 PM

Koufax had a great 5 year run, as good as any although there are comparable (Grove comes to mind). A great 5 year run does not qualify one for best pitcher of all time, IMO.

ejharrington · #34 12-27-2015, 12:50 PM

Cy won 500 games; no one else is close. He has my vote.

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