Johnson, Mathewson, or Young? Which one do you think was the best?

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

I say Walter Johnson... Incredible record, and never had the supporting cast that Matty did...

I SoMe WHaT Agree...
However, Mr .Johnson didn't Live
Under the Constant "New York Pressure" as DiD Mr. Mathewson!

One of the ReaSoNs WhY I HaVe THiS AVaTaR!
I BeLieVe THaT THeY WeRe Equals ~
BuT iN THe EnD... I GiVe THe NoD Ta MaTTy!!!

2 DiFFeReNT TyPeS oF PiTcHeRs THouGH ~
Sort of Like a Young Greg Maddox vs Randy Johnson
of the NoT So ReCent PaST... Aye!?

I do ReMeMBeR ReaDiN THaT Mr. CoBB
Was Caught SaYiN THaT He
GaVe HiS VoTe Ta MiSTaR Johnson...
And iT WaS ALSo SaiD THaT
iT WaS a GooD ReaSoN WHy Mr. CoBB
Crowded the Plate and Bunted quite often
when FaciN Mr. Johnson!
CrowdiN the Plate to intimidate'em...
BunTiN Cause He Couldn't HiT'em!

iN THe EnD... iTs a Very GooD BaSeBaLL DeBaTe

KeViN... THaNKs FiR the GraND ToPiC Ta ToSS ARouND!!!

[glynparson]

gets my vote.

[the 'stache]

Walter Johnson. If he'd have pitched for a team like the Giants, Johnson might have won 500 games.

Consider Walter Johnson's 1910 and 1911 seasons.

In 1910, Johnson was 25-17 on a Senators team that was 66-85 overall.
In 1911, Johnson was 25-13 on a Senators team that was 64-90 overall.

Over the course of those two seasons, Walter Johnson went 50-30, good for a .625 winning percentage. In the games which Walter Johnson did not record a decision, the Senators were 80-145, a .356 winning percentage.

[Fred]

Great stats to support Johnson. Kind of reminds us of Carlton's '72 season when he was 27-10 on a team that went 59-97.

It would be neat to see if someone could compile a stat that shows the records of the teams for both Matty and Walter through out their careers. That could help in closing the debate about the huge gap in lifetime win% that Matty has over Johnson.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Fred

Great stats to support Johnson. Kind of reminds us of Carlton's '72 season when he was 27-10 on a team that went 59-97.

It would be neat to see if someone could compile a stat that shows the records of the teams for both Matty and Walter through out their careers. That could help in closing the debate about the huge gap in lifetime win% that Matty has over Johnson.

Well, this is hardly an exhaustive study, but it does show how good the New York Giants and Washington Senators were overall during the careers of Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson. Keep in mind that both Mathewson and Johnson, throughout their careers, also appeared in games they did not start. Mathewson pitched in 635 games for the Giants, starting 551. Johnson pitched in 802 games, starting 666. So, when I refer to games that they ultimately factored in the decision (a win or a loss), that decision was not necessarily derrived from a start.



Between 1900 and 1916, the New York Giants went 1,456-1,080, good for a .574 winning percentage during Mathewson's career. Mathewson went 372-188 with the Giants, giving him a .664 winning percentage. In games where Mathewson did not factor in the decision, the Giants were 1,084-892, a .549 winning percentage.

Between 1907 and 1927, the Washington Senators went 1,559-1,609, giving them a .492 winning percentage during Johnson's career. Johnson went 417-279 with the Senators, giving him a .599 winning percentage. In games where Johnson did not factor in the decision, the Senators were 1,142-1,330, a .462 winning percentage.

In games where neither Mathewson or Johnson factored in the decision, the Giants (.549) had a .087 better winning percentage than the Senators (.462). That's 8.7%. Over the course of a 155 game season, that means, on average, the Giants won about 14 (13.5) more games than the Senators. From one perspective, if the Senators had won 8.7% more starts when Walter Johnson played in Washington, Johnson would have won an additional 58 games (666 starts x 0.087 = 57.942).

A few more numbers to bounce around in our brains. I think all of these are accurate, though it's late.

The Giants had a .574 winning percentage in the Mathewson era, compared to a .664 winning percentage for Mathewson himself. Mathewson's personal winning percentage was .090, or 9% better than his team's. Mathewson win-loss record was responsible for a bump of .025, or 2.5% (.574 with Mathewson - .549 without Mathewson) to his team's overall win percentage.

The Senators had a .492 winning percentage in the Johnson era, compared to a .599 winning percentage for Johnson himself. Johnson's personal winning percentage was .107, or 10.7% better, than his team's. Johnson's win-loss record was responsible for a bump of .030, or 3.0% (.492 with Johnson - .462 without Johnson) to his team's overall win percentage.

The hypothesis that Walter Johnson would have won more games had he pitched in New York is a valid one, of course. Trying to accurately forecast just how many more games he might have won, though, is next to impossible. I do feel that Johnson could have been the second pitcher ever to win 500 games though.

Something to think about, anyway.

[TexasLeaguer]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

I SoMe WHaT Agree...
However, Mr .Johnson didn't Live
Under the Constant "New York Pressure" as DiD Mr. Mathewson!

One of the ReaSoNs WhY I HaVe THiS AVaTaR!
I BeLieVe THaT THeY WeRe Equals ~
BuT iN THe EnD... I GiVe THe NoD Ta MaTTy!!!

2 DiFFeReNT TyPeS oF PiTcHeRs THouGH ~
Sort of Like a Young Greg Maddox vs Randy Johnson
of the NoT So ReCent PaST... Aye!?

I do ReMeMBeR ReaDiN THaT Mr. CoBB
Was Caught SaYiN THaT He
GaVe HiS VoTe Ta MiSTaR Johnson...
And iT WaS ALSo SaiD THaT
iT WaS a GooD ReaSoN WHy Mr. CoBB
Crowded the Plate and Bunted quite often
when FaciN Mr. Johnson!
CrowdiN the Plate to intimidate'em...
BunTiN Cause He Couldn't HiT'em!

iN THe EnD... iTs a Very GooD BaSeBaLL DeBaTe

KeViN... THaNKs FiR the GraND ToPiC Ta ToSS ARouND!!!

Denny, why are all your posts in an odd mix of capitals and lowercase? It makes it frustrating to read for me at least, and I usually don't read what you post because of it.

[Fred]

Denny,

Ross has a point. It is somewhat annoying to read your posts with the UC/LC changes going on. I do enjoy reading your posts.

[PolarBear]

I'm a Matty fan, and used to think he was the best but the more I've studied Johnson, the more I realize he was the best pitcher of all time, and it's not really even close. If he had been on a first division team his entire career, he likely would have had 520 wins and a 75% winning percentage.

[glchen]

Cy Young. Leads all pitchers in WAR.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'm a Matty fan, and used to think he was the best but the more I've studied Johnson, the more I realize he was the best pitcher of all time, and it's not really even close. If he had been on a first division team his entire career, he likely would have had 520 wins and a 75% winning percentage.

No argument here.
Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 150 (1), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 420 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 364 (1), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 1 (3038), Average HOFer ≈ 50
Pitching - 82 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (1st), 165.6 career WAR/89.5 7yr-peak WAR/127.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by TexasLeaguer

Denny, why are all your posts in an odd mix of capitals and lowercase? It makes it frustrating to read for me at least, and I usually don't read what you post because of it.

Exactly, I don't even bother trying to read them anymore.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by TexasLeaguer

Denny, why are all your posts in an odd mix of capitals and lowercase? It makes it frustrating to read for me at least, and I usually don't read what you post because of it.

I actually find it quite amusing.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by TexasLeaguer

Denny, why are all your posts in an odd mix of capitals and lowercase? It makes it frustrating to read for me at least, and I usually don't read what you post because of it.

You guys obviously don't know Denny! Hope ur doin well u ole scondrel! Fir sure!