Johnson, Mathewson, or Young? Which one do you think was the best?

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You took that quote from Willie Stargell.

Yes Peter! One of my favorite pitching quotes. Another favorite is Reggie Jackson's assessment of Tom Seaver right before Game 1 of the 1973 World Series to a reporter and I quote....."Tom Seaver is so good that blind people come out to the park to HEAR him pitch"!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Yes Peter! One of my favorite pitching quotes. Another favorite is Reggie Jackson's assessment of Tom Seaver right before Game 1 of the 1973 World Series to a reporter and I quote....."Tom Seaver is so good that blind people come out to the park to HEAR him pitch"!

Yeah that was brilliant too. Another great tribute to a pitcher (I believe it's real) is when Norm Cash, the last batter up against Ryan in one of his no-hitters, came to the plate with a broom handle and told the catcher and umpire it would do him just as much good as a bat.

Then there is the immortal assessment of Lefty Grove, though by a writer not a player -- he could throw a lambchop past a wolf.

And speaking of Johnson, supposedly an anonymous batter complained to the umpire about called strike three, saying, it sounded low to me.

[ValKehl]

Bill, many thanks for providing the Giants and Senators team stats, especially the breakdowns as to how these teams fared with and without their star pitchers. The key interpretation I make from these stats is:

- The Giants winning % was 20.9% better when Matty was the pitcher of record (.664/.549 - 1).

- The Senators winning % was 29.7% better when WaJo was the pitcher of record (.599/.462 - 1).

[the 'stache]

If we were to open this topic up a bit at a later date to include modern pitchers, Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez would be 1a and 1b at the top of my list. The more I look at Maddux's numbers, in particular, the more impressed I become.

4 Cy Young Awards
4 other top 5 Cy Young finishes
18 Gold Gloves

Since 1965, only Pedro Martinez' 291 ERA + beats the 271 ERA + Maddux put up in 1994, and the 260 ERA + Maddux put up in 2005.

The reason that Maddux blows my mind most of all is that, unlike Pedro, who had an overpowering fastball to go with his killer control, Maddux never had blazing heat. He achieved what he did with pinpoint accuracy and great ball movement, and made hitters look just foolish in the process.

[dabigyankeeman]

I gotta be honest about Maddux, while totally great, I still think the umps made him much greater than he was. It seemed that every time he pitched, the strike zone got about 4-6 inches wider, away from the batter. Not only gave him extra strikes, but made the batter swing at bad pitches since he knew they were gonna be called strikes.

[aro13]

Between 1900 and 1916, the New York Giants went 1,456-1,080, good for a .574 winning percentage during Mathewson's career. Mathewson went 372-188 with the Giants, giving him a .664 winning percentage. In games where Mathewson did not factor in the decision, the Giants were 1,084-892, a .549 winning percentage.

Between 1907 and 1927, the Washington Senators went 1,559-1,609, giving them a .492 winning percentage during Johnson's career. Johnson went 417-279 with the Senators, giving him a .599 winning percentage. In games where Johnson did not factor in the decision, the Senators were 1,142-1,330, a .462 winning percentage

What you are really doing is comparing Johnson and Mathewson to the rest of their teams pitchers. The record of the starting pitcher has nothing to do with the quality of the other pitchers on the staff, it has to do with the run support received. If Johnson received significantly less run support then Mathewson that would matter. If Johnson pitched on a staff that was considerably weaker then the staff that Mathewson pitched with that would not matter at all in comparing them.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by aro13

What you are really doing is comparing Johnson and Mathewson to the rest of their teams pitchers. The record of the starting pitcher has nothing to do with the quality of the other pitchers on the staff, it has to do with the run support received. If Johnson received significantly less run support then Mathewson that would matter. If Johnson pitched on a staff that was considerably weaker then the staff that Mathewson pitched with that would not matter at all in comparing them.

Actually, the quality of the other pitchers on the staff have a real, though indirect effect on the record of a given starting pitchers' record:

The burden of being the team's ace is not only that you are almost always going against the opponents' best, which means, on average, less offensive support, but also starts frequently moved up to get more total starts.

Back in the 'day', ace starters would routinely pitch on two days rest and even one in extreme situations. Lesser pitchers' starts would be passed over to accommodate more starts by the ace - plus those same aces would always be available for relief appearances on their day or days of rest.

All this definitely impacts great pitchers' records, so for Someone like Johnson to do all he did is even more amazing.
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[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If we were to open this topic up a bit at a later date to include modern pitchers, Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez would be 1a and 1b at the top of my list. The more I look at Maddux's numbers, in particular, the more impressed I become.

4 Cy Young Awards
4 other top 5 Cy Young finishes
18 Gold Gloves

Since 1965, only Pedro Martinez' 291 ERA + beats the 271 ERA + Maddux put up in 1994, and the 260 ERA + Maddux put up in 2005.

The reason that Maddux blows my mind most of all is that, unlike Pedro, who had an overpowering fastball to go with his killer control, Maddux never had blazing heat. He achieved what he did with pinpoint accuracy and great ball movement, and made hitters look just foolish in the process.

I totally agree with you: What separates Maddux from Pedro and visa versa is that extra weapon Pedro possessed.

The double-edge to that sword of velocity was that it took more out of Pedro and led to shorter starts, while Maddux would just adjust his approach ever so slightly and last longer.

Either way, I felt honored to get to watch their artistry - it was really something to behold!
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[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah that was brilliant too. Another great tribute to a pitcher (I believe it's real) is when Norm Cash, the last batter up against Ryan in one of his no-hitters, came to the plate with a broom handle and told the catcher and umpire it would do him just as much good as a bat.

Then there is the immortal assessment of Lefty Grove, though by a writer not a player -- he could throw a lambchop past a wolf.

And speaking of Johnson, supposedly an anonymous batter complained to the umpire about called strike three, saying, it sounded low to me.

All great quotes Peter! Love the Grove quote which actually starts out: "He's so fast...."

[obcbobd]

Johnson.

And I agree with those citing Pedro or Koufax as among the all time greats.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Johnson.

And I agree with those citing Pedro or Koufax as among the all time greats.

They are greats but of course weren't choices in the survey from the original post.

[dabigyankeeman]

I gotta say Walter Johnson, maybe the greatest ever.