HOF results

[glchen]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'll bring up Jeff Kent again. How does a guy with his run producing numbers at second base not get more votes?? Your statements probably say it all.

I think Kent was hurt by the 10 player rule on the ballot. A lot of voters are still putting PED users on the ballot because they don't believe they should be excluded. Therefore, somewhat more "marginal" HOFers are losing significant numbers of votes.

I think Kent will eventually be voted in by the Veterans Committee, and I don't really have a problem with that approach.

Personally, I still don't believe PED users should get into the HOF. Their numbers aren't "real" numbers. People argue that they were competing against other PED users so those stats were legit. However, to me, it's like Lance Armstrong and the Tour de France. You can say that he was competing against other users on the Tour, so you shouldn't strip him of his titles? That doesn't make sense to me. The Hall honors the best players, and you can't really say you deserve to be one of the best if you cheated your way there.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think Kent was hurt by the 10 player rule on the ballot. A lot of voters are still putting PED users on the ballot because they don't believe they should be excluded. Therefore, somewhat more "marginal" HOFers are losing significant numbers of votes.

I think Kent will eventually be voted in by the Veterans Committee, and I don't really have a problem with that approach.

Personally, I still don't believe PED users should get into the HOF. Their numbers aren't "real" numbers. People argue that they were competing against other PED users so those stats were legit. However, to me, it's like Lance Armstrong and the Tour de France. You can say that he was competing against other users on the Tour, so you shouldn't strip him of his titles? That doesn't make sense to me. The Hall honors the best players, and you can't really say you deserve to be one of the best if you cheated your way there.

Well said. But I do hope the voters wake up and elect Kent the traditional way. For all of the steroid heads, I hope to God they never get to Cooperstown.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Well said. But I do hope the voters wake up and elect Kent the traditional way. For all of the steroid heads, I hope to God they never get to Cooperstown.

Well, there's probably already a few in.

[clydepepper]

Reliable sources indicate a strong possibility that two of the three voters who did not vote for Griffey are brothers: Moe and Curly. The third voter goes by Larry.



I was happy to see that one of my favorite players, David Eckstein, got two votes...but, I hope those two votes did not come at Griffey's expense.


Like Jayson Stark, I would have had Billy Wagner (another of my favorites) as one of my full ballot of ten. (check out Starks comments from this morning on ESPN.com)

Good to see Trevor Hoffman get so much support in his first year.

I think with Piazza getting in, Bagwell should get in next year, then perhaps Sheffield and even Bonds and Clemens and Sosa.

I'm not yet accepting of those last few getting in but the Commissioner made a good, sound argument as to why they should get in.

The same reasoning would keep out Palmeiro, McGwire, and Manny Ramirez since they have actually been caught in the act.
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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Reliable sources indicate a strong possibility that two of the three voters who did not vote for Griffey are brothers: Moe and Curly. The third voter goes by Larry.



I was happy to see that one of my favorite players, David Eckstein, got two votes...but, I hope those two votes did not come at Griffey's expense.


Like Jayson Stark, I would have had Billy Wagner (another of my favorites) as one of my full ballot of ten. (check out Starks comments from this morning on ESPN.com)

Good to see Trevor Hoffman get so much support in his first year.

I think with Piazza getting in, Bagwell should get in next year, then perhaps Sheffield and even Bonds and Clemens and Sosa.

I'm not yet accepting of those last few getting in but the Commissioner made a good, sound argument as to why they should get in.

The same reasoning would keep out Palmeiro, McGwire, and Manny Ramirez since they have actually been caught in the act.
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I very much doubt Sheffield ever gets in even if they start inducting roiders.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I very much doubt Sheffield ever gets in even if they start inducting roiders.

I think Bagwell, Sheffield and Sosa would get in because while there was only speculation, none ever failed a drug test or were otherwise suspended for same.

Palmeiro, Ramirez, and Rodriguez were all suspended for PEDs, while McGwire got caught with some in his locker (funny how he never got charged for anything, but the known presence of the stuff in his locker put him in this group). I think McGwire skated at the time because, admit it, we were all caught up in that HR race. I was really more offended by his lying to the Maris family.

Bonds and Clemens are a more difficult discussion: Both were arguably the best players at their position well before 'strange things' started showing up. Neither was ever convicted of using PEDs, although if you want to believe in such, no one would be better prepared to have the finest 'masking' product available.
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[rats60]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I think Bagwell, Sheffield and Sosa would get in because while there was only speculation, none ever failed a drug test or were otherwise suspended for same.

Palmeiro, Ramirez, and Rodriguez were all suspended for PEDs, while McGwire got caught with some in his locker (funny how he never got charged for anything, but the known presence of the stuff in his locker put him in this group). I think McGwire skated at the time because, admit it, we were all caught up in that HR race. I was really more offended by his lying to the Maris family.

Bonds and Clemens are a more difficult discussion: Both were arguably the best players at their position well before 'strange things' started showing up. Neither was ever convicted of using PEDs, although if you want to believe in such, no one would be better prepared to have the finest 'masking' product available.
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Mc Gwire got caught with Andro in his locker which was legal at the time, sold at GNC, but later banned. Do you know who else was caught using Andro? Newest hofer Mike Piazza.

McGwire admitted to using steroids long after his career was over, but didn't say what he used. It is widely believed that he used illegal drugs too, but he wasn't caught doing so.

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I think Bagwell, Sheffield and Sosa would get in because while there was only speculation, none ever failed a drug test or were otherwise suspended for same.

Palmeiro, Ramirez, and Rodriguez were all suspended for PEDs, while McGwire got caught with some in his locker (funny how he never got charged for anything, but the known presence of the stuff in his locker put him in this group). I think McGwire skated at the time because, admit it, we were all caught up in that HR race. I was really more offended by his lying to the Maris family.

Bonds and Clemens are a more difficult discussion: Both were arguably the best players at their position well before 'strange things' started showing up. Neither was ever convicted of using PEDs, although if you want to believe in such, no one would be better prepared to have the finest 'masking' product available.
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Hmm, wasn't Sheffield on the 2003 list? And Sosa got caught with a corked bat. That's still cheating, right?

[Topps206]

Please, please, please next year be the year Raines gets it.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Reliable sources indicate a strong possibility that two of the three voters who did not vote for Griffey are brothers: Moe and Curly. The third voter goes by Larry.



I was happy to see that one of my favorite players, David Eckstein, got two votes...but, I hope those two votes did not come at Griffey's expense.


Like Jayson Stark, I would have had Billy Wagner (another of my favorites) as one of my full ballot of ten. (check out Starks comments from this morning on ESPN.com)

Good to see Trevor Hoffman get so much support in his first year.

I think with Piazza getting in, Bagwell should get in next year, then perhaps Sheffield and even Bonds and Clemens and Sosa.

I'm not yet accepting of those last few getting in but the Commissioner made a good, sound argument as to why they should get in.

The same reasoning would keep out Palmeiro, McGwire, and Manny Ramirez since they have actually been caught in the act.
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I agree that it was nice to see Hoffman get support, but also sad that Lee Smith did not gain any ground. Lee was the premeir closer in his era and players should be grouped with their peers. Nobody was better than Lee in his time but the fact that he in general was not associated with any particular team has hurt his chances. In my Hall, he is a first round winner as not only was he a great closer, but he is also a top notch human being. Great guy and none of the nasty attitude that so many stars have. All positives in my book. Maybe he will eventually make it in through the veterens committee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kmac32

I agree that it was nice to see Hoffman get support, but also sad that Lee Smith did not gain any ground. Lee was the premeir closer in his era and players should be grouped with their peers. Nobody was better than Lee in his time but the fact that he in general was not associated with any particular team has hurt his chances. In my Hall, he is a first round winner as not only was he a great closer, but he is also a top notch human being. Great guy and none of the nasty attitude that so many stars have. All positives in my book. Maybe he will eventually make it in through the veterens committee.

Being 71-92 didn't help Smith either. He comes in 14th among relief pitchers in the JAWS metric. Hoffman, interestingly, is 21st. I have read that he was very overrated but I can't place that now, maybe Bill James?

[packs]

Griffey was a monster. I'd say he's top 10. Elite defense, elite hitter, the prettiest swing you ever saw. Had a real shot at breaking Aaron's record if not for getting hurt.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by kmac32

I agree that it was nice to see Hoffman get support, but also sad that Lee Smith did not gain any ground. Lee was the premeir closer in his era and players should be grouped with their peers. Nobody was better than Lee in his time but the fact that he in general was not associated with any particular team has hurt his chances. In my Hall, he is a first round winner as not only was he a great closer, but he is also a top notch human being. Great guy and none of the nasty attitude that so many stars have. All positives in my book. Maybe he will eventually make it in through the veterens committee.

Premier closer in his era? Really? Early 80s, Sutter was better. Late 80s & Early 90s, Eck was better. Mid-late 90s? No.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Premier closer in his era? Really? Early 80s, Sutter was better. Late 80s & Early 90s, Eck was better. Mid-late 90s? No.

And who is third on the list of all time saves in MLB? Wasn't Sutter or Eckersley last time I checked. Believe the order is Hoffman, Rivera, Smith. Don't see Sutter or Eckersley in the top 5 of the list. Sutter is 26th on the list with 300 saves and Eckersley is 6th with 390 saves. Smith had 478 career saves. The numbers speak for themselves.

[PM770]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Premier closer in his era? Really? Early 80s, Sutter was better. Late 80s & Early 90s, Eck was better. Mid-late 90s? No.

Wouldn't Lee Smith have been considered the "Premier Closer" of that 1993-96 window when Eck dropped off and pre-Rivera taking over as Yankee closer?

Not really an era, but I do remember a short period of time when Lee Smith was considered THE closer.

That said, I'm not sure I would put him either.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Reliable sources indicate a strong possibility that two of the three voters who did not vote for Griffey are brothers: Moe and Curly. The third voter goes by Larry.



I was happy to see that one of my favorite players, David Eckstein, got two votes...but, I hope those two votes did not come at Griffey's expense.


Like Jayson Stark, I would have had Billy Wagner (another of my favorites) as one of my full ballot of ten. (check out Starks comments from this morning on ESPN.com)

Good to see Trevor Hoffman get so much support in his first year.

I think with Piazza getting in, Bagwell should get in next year, then perhaps Sheffield and even Bonds and Clemens and Sosa.
(Well, maybe not)

I'm not yet accepting of those last few getting in but the Commissioner made a good, sound argument as to why they should get in.

The same reasoning would keep out Palmeiro, McGwire, and Manny Ramirez since they have actually been caught in the act.
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I went back and checked the Mitchell Report and Sheffield, Sosa, Bonds, and Clemens were all mentioned and I believe that report still has enough influence to keep all those mentioned out of the Hall & I hope the commissioner and the voters would feel the same way.
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