HOF results

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Any metric has its limitations, for sure. But that said, would you not agree that purely using counting stats can be very skewed? Regarding your last point, I guess it's possible some 40s players get the benefit of being high relative to a mediocre average given the depleting effect of WWII, but other than that, can we really say that as a whole, "baseball" overall was better in one decade than another?

Let's ask it another way, if you look at the JAWS/WAR rankings (or the related Baseball Reference metrics), how many instances do you really see where you say, that's insane?

Well, when I see players like Bobby Grich with such high WAR's, I think that's insane. Seriously, I was taking a look at one of his highest WAR year, and in that year, Grich batted 6th in his lineup. So, we're saying that his manager thought he was the 4th best hitter on his team, at best, yet this guy is somehow a marginal HOFer, while the 3-4-5 batters on the team (like Brian Downing) are like jokes when considering them of the Hall? Just the common sense of this doesn't ring true to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.hallofstats.com/articles/...l-of-fame-case

[glchen]

Peter, most of that article uses elements of what goes into WAR, which as I've said has flaws. For example, if we use WAR, Cy Young (WAR of 170) destroys Walter Johnson (WAR of 152) for same number of years played. And Sandy Koufax has about the same WAR as Urban Shocker for about the same number of years played.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by glchen

Well, when I see players like Bobby Grich with such high WAR's, I think that's insane. Seriously, I was taking a look at one of his highest WAR year, and in that year, Grich batted 6th in his lineup. So, we're saying that his manager thought he was the 4th best hitter on his team, at best, yet this guy is somehow a marginal HOFer, while the 3-4-5 batters on the team (like Brian Downing) are like jokes when considering them of the Hall? Just the common sense of this doesn't ring true to me.

That was an excellent article breaking down the case for Grich in layman's terms. Basically he is one of the top 8 offensive second basemen of all time, and one of the top 10 defensively of all time. The only second baseman better than Grich on both offense and defense is Nap Lajoie. That's it.

OPS+ is a quantitative stat. Nothing to do with someone's perception of value going into a complicated formula. OPS+ is what it is. Grich's career OPS+ is 125. Only four second basemen with 8,000 or more career plate appearances have a better career OPS+. Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins and Joe Morgan.

But you are basing it on where he batted in the lineup during his best year?

Do you see the problem here?

Tom C

[glchen]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

That was an excellent article breaking down the case for Grich in layman's terms. Basically he is one of the top 8 offensive second basemen of all time, and one of the top 10 defensively of all time. The only second baseman better than Grich on both offense and defense is Nap Lajoie. That's it.

OPS+ is a quantitative stat. Nothing to do with someone's perception of value going into a complicated formula. OPS+ is what it is. Grich's career OPS+ is 125. Only four second basemen with 8,000 or more career plate appearances have a better career OPS+. Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins and Joe Morgan.

But you are basing it on where he batted in the lineup during his best year?

Do you see the problem here?

Tom C

Tom, I know you're using stats, but I'm looking more at common sense. Grich, you are not even the most valuable player on this team, maybe the 4th most valuable at best, not including pitchers. Yet you're the only one who deserves to be looked at for inclusion into the Hall of Fame. Doesn't that just seem strange to you?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glchen

Tom, I know you're using stats, but I'm looking more at common sense. Grich, you are not even the most valuable player on this team, maybe the 4th most valuable at best, not including pitchers. Yet you're the only one who deserves to be looked at for inclusion into the Hall of Fame. Doesn't that just seem strange to you?

If he were an outfielder we wouldn't be having this discussion. He was a middle infielder where the standards are different.

[glchen]

That's where it vexes me, especially for 2nd basemen. You don't have the arm or athleticism for SS. And you don't have much of a bat either, but you're decent on defense, just not as good as our SS. Yet we need to meet our quota for 2nd basemen in the HOF. This and catcher are like where players who can't hit try to get a position on the team. (e.g., if Piazza played 1B, I doubt he'd be in the HOF.)

[howard38]

Originally Posted by glchen

That's where it vexes me, especially for 2nd basemen. You don't have the arm or athleticism for SS. And you don't have much of a bat either, but you're decent on defense, just not as good as our SS. Yet we need to meet our quota for 2nd basemen in the HOF. This and catcher are like where players who can't hit try to get a position on the team. (e.g., if Piazza played 1B, I doubt he'd be in the HOF.)

He did have the athleticism and the arm to play SS. He was recognized as an outstanding SS in the minor leagues and played the position for the Orioles when he first made the majors where he was still considered outstanding. He was only moved to 2B to accommodate Mark Belanger who probably ranks w/Ozzie Smith as the GOAT defensively at the position. As it turned out Grich was even better at 2B than he was at SS so he remained there for the rest of his career.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by howard38

He did have the athleticism and the arm to play SS. He was recognized as an outstanding SS in the minor leagues and played the position for the Orioles when he first made the majors where he was still considered outstanding. He was only moved to 2B to accommodate Mark Belanger who probably ranks w/Ozzie Smith as the GOAT defensively at the position. As it turned out Grich was even better at 2B than he was at SS so he remained there for the rest of his career.

Belanger came up years before Grich. I think he was injured Grich's rookie year which is why Grich played some SS. Once Belanger was healthy, Grich was moved.