Theories About the Existence of High Grade Vintage

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So why is it that old time dealers who have handled countless thousands of T and E cards have told me they NEVER encountered cards that would grade 8 or 9? Or that it was an extremely rare occasion?

8s and 9s are either untouched for decades (Black Swamp find for instance) or doctored. I'd guess the ratio is around 1:99

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

8s and 9s are either untouched for decades (Black Swamp find for instance) or doctored. I'd guess the ratio is around 1:99

Right, and the OP's question was about 8s and 9s.

"Since re-entering the hobby a few years ago, the thing that has most blown my mind is the existence of extremely high grade vintage cards. I'm talking about T206s in 8 and 9s, Goudeys in 9, and even a '34 Goudey Gehrig in Gem MT 10 coming to auction from Heritage."

[hangman62]

Jsq

well said !

[Laxcat]

My dad was one of those guys. He'd place an add in the town he was in and BAM!!! He said stuff would come in that you wouldn't believe. People would bring in t's like they were reams of paper.

[jmb]

Thank you for that informative post jsq.

[trdcrdkid]

Prompted by a query on this board from jsq, I recently went through every issue from the first five years of Sports Collectors Digest, from its inception in October 1973 to late 1978. (My recent post about 1973 card auction prices was one result.) One thing that SCD often did in those days was reprint newspaper articles about card collecting, of which there were a lot in the mid-70s as the hobby was starting to take off. Many of these articles focused on a single collector and appeared in his local paper. It wasn't unusual for these articles to mention that the collector had 20,000 or 50,000 cards, and several of them mention the hotel buying trips. I was just a kid at the time, and I remember hearing about such things after I got seriously interested in collecting in 1975-76, but there was no way I could have afforded anything like that on my 50 cents a week allowance.

One other interesting thing I found was articles in the mid-1970s decrying inflation in the hobby, even though any inflation up to that time was nothing compared to what was to come a few years later. Dave Meiners, a columnist for SCD, wrote a long two-part article in early 1974 ripping all the newcomers who didn't really care about the hobby and were causing prices to go up. He included a chart showing the year-by-year rise in prices of common cards from a bunch of popular sets, going from 1966 to December 1973. (I don't have it in front of me, but I think the average price of T206 commons went from something like 14 cents to 76 cents during that time, according to Meiners.) Then Dave Goldsman wrote a long follow-up article for the June 30, 1976 SCD, in which he extended Meiners' chart by going back through hobby publications from the previous two years and calculating common card prices for each of 60 sets every month from January 1974 to May 1976, and using these to create a "baseball card price index" with January 1974 being 100. He found that the index was at 161 in May 1976, meaning that card prices on average had risen by 60% in a little over two years, though individual sets varied quite a bit. The average T206 common sold for 83.7 cents in January 1974 but only 80 cents in January 1976. He had a chart showing the average price of some popular sets (1950-55 Bowman, 1951-74 Topps, 1959 Fleer, T206, 1970-72 Kelloggs) every three months over the two year period.

Three months after Goldsman's article, the September 30, 1976 SCD had an announcement of Jim Beckett's card price survey, which he was going to distribute at the upcoming Twin Cities card convention and by mail to anybody who wanted to fill it out. The results of Beckett's first survey were published in SCD in 1977, and the results of the second one were published in 1978, before Beckett and Dennis Eckes started publishing the Sport Americana Baseball Card Price Guide in 1979.

Oh, and Bill Mastro was all over SCD in 1976, with ads in almost every issue and an occasional article. In the September 15, 1976 issue he was selling a T206 set in vg condition, minus Wagner, Plank, and Magie, for $900.

[1880nonsports]

Thanks

[xplainer]

This thread came to mind today.

I decided to upgrade my 1914 Polo Grounds Jimmy Lavender (laughter starts) for my PC, so I went to ebay looking. I was able to get a PSA 8 for under $50 delivered. I thought, a PSA 8 from 1914, of a player no one cares about? How did it survive all these years in that condition?
I've submitted modern cards I've pulled from packs that didn't get that.

I don't know really, but I am interested in reading the thoughts in this thread. Very interesting.

I know I am the xplainer, but I pass on this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by xplainer

This thread came to mind today.

I decided to upgrade my 1914 Polo Grounds Jimmy Lavender (laughter starts) for my PC, so I went to ebay looking. I was able to get a PSA 8 for under $50 delivered. I thought, a PSA 8 from 1914, of a player no one cares about? How did it survive all these years in that condition?
I've submitted modern cards I've pulled from packs that didn't get that.

I don't know really, but I am interested in reading the thoughts in this thread. Very interesting.

I know I am the xplainer, but I pass on this one.

It's a bit easier to survive when you don't have corners.

[brass_rat]

I'd like to echo others in saying thank you to those that have contributed to this thread, particularly jsq and David for their lengthy and interesting stories. I've really enjoyed reading all of this.

Cheers,
Steve

[glchen]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I'd like to echo others in saying thank you to those that have contributed to this thread, particularly jsq and David for their lengthy and interesting stories. I've really enjoyed reading all of this.

Cheers,
Steve

+1!

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a bit easier to survive when you don't have corners.

Still.

[brianp-beme]

A couple of thoughts about the Polo Grounds card. As Peter mentioned previously a good reason why there are so many high grade ones around is that this set was issued with rounded corners, and thus severely minimizing the possibility of corner damage.

Secondly these cards were not issued with product (minimizing the possibility of damage), but instead came as part of a deck. I imagine there were plenty of decks that were barely or not even touched, and those cards remained well protected within their pack through the decades.

Brian

Originally Posted by xplainer

This thread came to mind today.

I decided to upgrade my 1914 Polo Grounds Jimmy Lavender (laughter starts) for my PC, so I went to ebay looking. I was able to get a PSA 8 for under $50 delivered. I thought, a PSA 8 from 1914, of a player no one cares about? How did it survive all these years in that condition?
I've submitted modern cards I've pulled from packs that didn't get that.

I don't know really, but I am interested in reading the thoughts in this thread. Very interesting.

I know I am the xplainer, but I pass on this one.

[Jay Wolt]

Brian is correct on the game cards. I'll also add that many of the game issues have a more durable card stock
as they were meant to be handled & shuffled.

Here's a 132 year old mint Lawson's game card as example

[Stampsfan]

To JSQ and to all who contributed to this and took the time to share their knowledge and memories. This is a wonderful forum, and the reason is obvious in this thread.

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Brian is correct on the game cards. I'll also add that many of the game issues have a more durable card stock
as they were meant to be handled & shuffled.

Here's a 132 year old mint Lawson's game card as example

Alright, I get the point.

[jsq]

yes i want to publicly thank some specific very generous members of the board (i already thanked them in private):

some for helping me hunt up some of my old advertisements from 73 - 77 era from trader speaks and sports collectors digest. a really big shout out of thanks to trdcrdkid who took the time to go through MANY old issues of scd and sent me copies of my old adverts and related dates. my wife is building a scrap book and these are a nice addition to travel down memory lane.

also thanks to the other board members who looked through their runs of various hobby pubs. we covered many of the issues from that time.

also a big shout out of thanks to TCMA who metioned he had a bunch of old auction catalogs he wanted to get rid of and as a result i replaced the ones i had donated and or tossed a few years back when i moved.

this board has been most friendly and generous and i am happy to try to repay the kindness they have shown me.

all the best,
jsq

[jsq]

really neat to see the research you listed from past hobby issues. i provides some interesting perspective.

thanks and all the best,
jsq

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Prompted by a query on this board from jsq, I recently went through every issue from the first five years of Sports Collectors Digest, from its inception in October 1973 to late 1978. (My recent post about 1973 card auction prices was one result.) One thing that SCD often did in those days was reprint newspaper articles about card collecting, of which there were a lot in the mid-70s as the hobby was starting to take off. Many of these articles focused on a single collector and appeared in his local paper. It wasn't unusual for these articles to mention that the collector had 20,000 or 50,000 cards, and several of them mention the hotel buying trips. I was just a kid at the time, and I remember hearing about such things after I got seriously interested in collecting in 1975-76, but there was no way I could have afforded anything like that on my 50 cents a week allowance.

One other interesting thing I found was articles in the mid-1970s decrying inflation in the hobby, even though any inflation up to that time was nothing compared to what was to come a few years later. Dave Meiners, a columnist for SCD, wrote a long two-part article in early 1974 ripping all the newcomers who didn't really care about the hobby and were causing prices to go up. He included a chart showing the year-by-year rise in prices of common cards from a bunch of popular sets, going from 1966 to December 1973. (I don't have it in front of me, but I think the average price of T206 commons went from something like 14 cents to 76 cents during that time, according to Meiners.) Then Dave Goldsman wrote a long follow-up article for the June 30, 1976 SCD, in which he extended Meiners' chart by going back through hobby publications from the previous two years and calculating common card prices for each of 60 sets every month from January 1974 to May 1976, and using these to create a "baseball card price index" with January 1974 being 100. He found that the index was at 161 in May 1976, meaning that card prices on average had risen by 60% in a little over two years, though individual sets varied quite a bit. The average T206 common sold for 83.7 cents in January 1974 but only 80 cents in January 1976. He had a chart showing the average price of some popular sets (1950-55 Bowman, 1951-74 Topps, 1959 Fleer, T206, 1970-72 Kelloggs) every three months over the two year period.

Three months after Goldsman's article, the September 30, 1976 SCD had an announcement of Jim Beckett's card price survey, which he was going to distribute at the upcoming Twin Cities card convention and by mail to anybody who wanted to fill it out. The results of Beckett's first survey were published in SCD in 1977, and the results of the second one were published in 1978, before Beckett and Dennis Eckes started publishing the Sport Americana Baseball Card Price Guide in 1979.

Oh, and Bill Mastro was all over SCD in 1976, with ads in almost every issue and an occasional article. In the September 15, 1976 issue he was selling a T206 set in vg condition, minus Wagner, Plank, and Magie, for $900.

[Tim Kindler]

Sam, who started this thread, and to everyone who has contributed to this thread, Thank You. It is really cool to read about interesting topics, perspectives, and educational items about the history of card collecting. Thanks for my time well spent reading everyone's thoughts. This is why I spend time here each day!

Tim Kindler

[SAllen2556]

[QUOTE=Tim Kindler;1490573]Sam, who started this thread, and to everyone who has contributed to this thread, Thank You. It is really cool to read about interesting topics, perspectives, and educational items about the history of card collecting. Thanks for my time well spent reading everyone's thoughts. This is why I spend time here each day!

A big +1!

Detroit Free Press, August 30, 1975

[jsq]

notice what the advert wanted, mostly regionals and of course the ultra rare "gowdys" which are the rarer version of goudeys and little known by todays collectors!

(just massively kidding on that last bit, it is a typo in the below listed hotel buying trip advert. the adverts were sometimes called into the paper via phone rather then sending "advertising copy" to the paper so you could get some interesting spelling results.

post 1960 items and even earlier topps cards were not always a big priority in most of the adverts for hotel buying trips from that era, rob lifson was highlighting his desire to purchase regionals. (regionals and premiums were the status stuff in the hobby at that moment in time along with e and t cards). bowmans were pretty exiciting also. but the advert does not even mention them.

i remember frothing over dan dee, glendale, and rodeo meats back then.

you will find 1 or more adverts similiar to this in every paper in the country in 1975 and 1976. hotel buying groups or individuals showed up in every city with over 100,000 metro and in many smaller cities. the hotel buying groups also showed up in many canadian cities and even some in venezuela. often different groups would show up in the same town throughout the year. sometimes you got skunked because of arriving late.

regards,
jsq

[QUOTE=SAllen2556;1491385]

Originally Posted by Tim Kindler

Sam, who started this thread, and to everyone who has contributed to this thread, Thank You. It is really cool to read about interesting topics, perspectives, and educational items about the history of card collecting. Thanks for my time well spent reading everyone's thoughts. This is why I spend time here each day!

A big +1!

Detroit Free Press, August 30, 1975

[1880nonsports]

Don Steinbach..........

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

8s and 9s are either untouched for decades (Black Swamp find for instance) or doctored. I'd guess the ratio is around 1:99

+1--what more is there to say?

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

+1--what more is there to say?

Larry

Plenty because most people, I think, don't believe it. How great (or not) would it be if some day one of our beloved superstar card doctors actually confessed the extent of what they (and others) have done in terms of crimes against the hobby.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Plenty because most people, I think, don't believe it. How great (or not) would it be if some day one of our beloved superstar card doctors actually confessed the extent of what they (and others) have done in terms of crimes against the hobby.

I agree with you, Pete. Would create quite a stir, wouldn't it? Although I think those that don't believe it are largely those shelling out huge sums for 8's, 9's and 10's from the '50's on back to the nineteen teens, at least. What was Mastro's figure? 90% of vintage cards in very high grades have been altered? Sure, there are some high grade examples that are legitimate due to origins discussed at length earlier in this thread, but just as certainly there are large numbers that have had "a little help," as I believe you are fond of saying, to get those grades. Personally, as far as pre-war is concerned, I'll stick with what is very scarce to extremely rare, with the best eye appeal I can find or live with. Cards such as my 1923 Lections Ruth (SGC poor), 1907 Dietsche Fielding Pose Cobb (PSA 5) and '39 V351 Ted Williams rookie (SGC Ex) are just some examples of what I seek out.

Best wishes in your own endeavors,

Larry