Altered cards...just an opinion

[irv]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

It's odd that it's considered so bad . I know comic books get pressed . I think I remember hearing about staple replacement somewhere to .

So of the worlds finest work of art are heavily restored . That art is considered priceless !

If it wasn't considered so taboo it I don't think anybody would have anything to hide. How know it might open the door for a company to be formed .where you can send your cards to be restored . It might sound crazy but imagine if you told someone from the 70s that one day there would be grading company's.

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

[Leon]

We have discussed "rare" and "scarce" many times. I doubt any die-hard pre-WWII collector would call a '52 Mick rare.....but he is very scarce because of demand. With a lot of what we (I) collect the rarity is too good for itself, concerning value. As for the discussion on alteration or restoration, the market sets prices on those attributes (when they are known about...which of course is an issue if they aren't)

Originally Posted by irv

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

We have discussed "rare" and "scarce" many times. I doubt any die-hard pre-WWII collector would call a '52 Mick rare.....but he is very scarce because of demand. With a lot of what we (I) collect the rarity is too good for itself, concerning value. As for the discussion on alteration or restoration, the market sets prices on those attributes (when they are known about...which of course is an issue if they aren't)

The high grade 52 Mantles are still very rare, especially considering the demand for them. Last time I checked there are 6 PSA 9s and 3 10s. I'm sure there are board members who know where all 9 of these cards are, or most of them any way. I think the next time a 10 comes up for auction, if it does, it breaks the record for most the most expensive baseball card.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I think the next time a 10 comes up for auction, if it does, it breaks the record for most the most expensive baseball card.

Intriguing prediction. Over $2.8M? Certainly possible at this rate.

[Leon]

Nine high grade Micks?..The '52 Micks aren't rare compared to most of what we collect. They are quite common relatively speaking.
...Hundreds of our cards (and probably thousands) are more rare. Few are as valuable due to the DEMAND though.....

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

The high grade 52 Mantles are still very rare, especially considering the demand for them. Last time I checked there are 6 PSA 9s and 3 10s. I'm sure there are board members who know where all 9 of these cards are, or most of them any way. I think the next time a 10 comes up for auction, if it does, it breaks the record for most the most expensive baseball card.

[glynparson]

easily passes 2.8 million. Heck i have heard of offers of 2 million on the 9s from some famous individuals.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by glynparson

easily passes 2.8 million. Heck i have heard of offers of 2 million on the 9s from some famous individuals.

+1....Probably passes 4 million. PSA SMR price right now for a PSA 9 I believe is about 1.5 million...

[CMIZ5290]

I just went online with PSA, and there are in fact 3 10's, that surprised me as I thought there were 2 with one being fairly recent. Anyway, I do agree with Glyn's comment about over $2.8 million, my estimate may have been a tad high....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

easily passes 2.8 million. Heck i have heard of offers of 2 million on the 9s from some famous individuals.

Maybe the guy who owns 4 of the 6 will give up one.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nine high grade Micks?..The '52 Micks aren't rare compared to most of what we collect. They are quite common relatively speaking.
...Hundreds of our cards (and probably thousands) are more rare. Few are as valuable due to the DEMAND though.....

Yea compared to rare pre-war stuff I'm sure that is true. But almost everyone who has collected in the last 50 years has dreamed of owning this card one day. 9 in the world is still pretty low.

If a Net54 member, or any collector wins the powerball tonight I could see them spending a lot more than 2.8mil, or even 5 to get one of the 10s. I'd put the over/under right at 5 mil even without the powerball.

[kmac32]

When it comes to altered cards, it depends on what the alteration is and how it effects the presentation of the card. Alterations like soaking do not really bother me much. Trimming and rebacking are no go for me as is true for recoloring cards. It really depends.

[steve B]

The 52 Mantle is only uncommon in the very top grades. With just over 1300 graded by PSA alone I don't think I'd even call it uncommon. Its price is almost entirely because of demand.

I have a few altered cards. Some I knew were altered when I bought them, others I didn't. I don't even count the minor stuff that I don't think of as an alteration. Soaking scrapbook remnants off, light surface cleaning(NOT stain removal, just removing years of filth that's on the surface) Removing wrapper wax from the front, that sort of thing.

I do think there are alterations that get past TPG. With the setup they all have it's just not possible to catch the really well done ones every time. If they took more time they'd catch more.

At the same time undersize isn't always trimmed. But beyond a certain point an undersize card shouldn't be slabbed under the current system. If they had a qualifier for "undersize but not trimmed" it might be doable.

I'd like to see SGC use the rejection code flips instead of the "A". I think 3 of the 4 I've had rejected were unaltered but either undersize or had cuts too rough to grade. The trimmed one was trimmed for sure - I still can't figure out why I sent it in.

In most collecting original is always worth more than restored. Even cars, and a lot of the bicycle guys I know have come around from the older "restore everything" mentality. Original with a couple scratches is much better than restored.
Btw - there apparently are or were multiples of some famous art. They mentioned it on a show I saw about a possible second Mona Lisa. The artists studio would sometimes make smaller copies of larger works that they could sell a real profit center for some artists.

There's a lot of cards I'd be happy to have even altered. It's just a matter of balancing the price for altered compared to the price of an unaltered copy. And that of course requires disclosure.
A full price restoration? I'd have to think on that one. Probably not for me, I've never been too condition crazy.

Steve B

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by irv

A piece of Art/painting is a "one" off. No two alike exist, other than "prints" of the original if it's allowed.

If everyone had say a 52 Mantle and had it professional overhauled, say, to pristine/mint 9-10 levels, then can you imagine how many would be on the market and what they're value would be worth?

The reason, or a big one, why the Mantle is so pricey in mint shape is the fact not a lot of them exist in this condition and they are rare or scare to begin with.

Comics are not "One Offs", and it is perfectly acceptable for comics to be altered. It does affect the price, and there are countless tales of collectors sending in their raw comics to CGC and receiving the (PLOD) "Purple Label of Death". It's identified as Professionally or Amateur restoration, Moderate or Extensive restoration, and even what the restoration is. And the price of the book reflects that. Look at the prices for "Amazing Fantasy 15" in, say, a 5.0 or 6.0, and check the pricing between a blue and a purple label.

There is a definite market for these things, and collectors can enjoy a 7.0 condition comic for a 4.0 price. To me, everyone wins when there is full, open disclosure.

While I don't profess to know every collectibles market, I have always felt the card game is the most stubborn in accepting altered items.

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

It's odd that it's considered so bad . I know comic books get pressed . I think I remember hearing about staple replacement somewhere to .

So of the worlds finest work of art are heavily restored . That art is considered priceless !

If it wasn't considered so taboo it I don't think anybody would have anything to hide. How know it might open the door for a company to be formed .where you can send your cards to be restored . It might sound crazy but imagine if you told someone from the 70s that one day there would be grading company's.

I also have not thought about a company specializing in restoring cards, although it exists in other areas. Great post on that, Rookiemonster. You've made me go "Aha!".

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

There is a definite market for these things, and collectors can enjoy a 7.0 condition comic for a 4.0 price. To me, everyone wins when there is full, open disclosure.

In one respect, I understand slabbing comics even less than cards. I can look at the front and back of a card in a slab and still enjoy the card itself. How many people though truly enjoy looking at the side edge of the card, which is the only part of the card you can't see in the slab.

For comics, I can look at the front and back covers, which I can enjoy in the slab, but I have no access to the inside of the comic. That said, I've sent off a few comics to get slabbed myself.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Leon

We have discussed "rare" and "scarce" many times. I doubt any die-hard pre-WWII collector would call a '52 Mick rare.....but he is very scarce because of demand. With a lot of what we (I) collect the rarity is too good for itself, concerning value. As for the discussion on alteration or restoration, the market sets prices on those attributes (when they are known about...which of course is an issue if they aren't)

What I was getting at, and although some "rare" art is indeed altered/restored with no monetary loss in value doing so, imagine if it was an accepted practice in the card business and what it would do to the hobby.

If I'm not mistaken, a lot/most collectors want a card or set in pristine, or as pristine as they can afford. If all cards/sets were pristine in mint or near mint condition due to being altered/restored, then the desire to collect would fall to the way side, or at least taper way off ultimately killing the hobby. It's just my opinion/observation, but I believe that is what would ultimately happen.