the list (of criminals) is revealed

1952boyntoncollector · #1 01-29-2016, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

And people are worried about the grading company that has 90% market share going out of business.

SGC has less then 3%.

If any of these revelations are a death sentence for a third party grader it glaringly obvious that it's the company that's owner is caught up in this mess.

How unreal. You grade the cards, you sell them through auction houses and you enhance the price with illegal bidding.

Haha

You can't make this stuff up. We might be seeing these fellas in an episode of American Greed.

Yeah there seems to be a huge conflict of interest.........who is ready to argue with me again that SGC are worth the same as PSA for the exact same card in same numerical holder.....still not sure on B/S/T people ask and wont sell unless get a PSA 4 price for a SGC 4 card with all things being equal with the card .....and usually we get an 'off to ebay' or 'ill keep it (because dont want to sell at market price) '
comment..

Boca Raton, has a great homestead exemption like all of Florida...that's why OJ moved down to Florida

#2 01-29-2016, 09:35 AM

You know what is most infuriating about this mess?! Last spring I taught a card collecting class to my students. Many members on here donated cards/supplies to us and they LOVED it. It was collecting in its purest form and was great to see. I know there are thousands of honest collectors out there and I will convey that to these kids......but I do have a few questions:

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

boneheadandrube · #3 01-29-2016, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman5520

You know what is most infuriating about this mess?! Last spring I taught a card collecting class to my students. Many members on here donated cards/supplies to us and they LOVED it. It was collecting in its purest form and was great to see. I know there are thousands of honest collectors out there and I will convey that to these kids......but I do have a few questions:

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

Just tell them that your classroom is make-believe.

tiger8mush · #4 01-29-2016, 09:56 AM

So much shilling and scam, from ONE auction house during a small window in time. Imagine if that window were opened up a little wider, and threw a few more auction houses into the mix? I bet a lot of people are hoping that doesn't happen ...

Stonepony · #5 01-29-2016, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So much shilling and scam, from ONE auction house during a small window in time. Imagine if that window were opened up a little wider, and threw a few more auction houses into the mix? I bet a lot of people are hoping that doesn't happen ...

I think it will. It's the very reason the silence from some board members is deafening.

rdwyer · #6 01-29-2016, 10:23 AM

If Peter Calderon for example shill bidded, does that mean Heritage Auctions shill bids in their auctions?

1880nonsports · #7 01-29-2016, 10:36 AM

although that never stopped anybody. Unless I'm mistaken they have a rule that allows a consignor to bid on their own items as long as they pay the hammer.
The more I look into this mess and despite knowing this was likely going on, I'm quite sad about some of the people who will look you in the eye and tell you they have your best interests in mind - and are cheating the hell out of you behind your back. Complicity is equally distasteful.
Certainly a part of me hopes this whole debacle hopefully isn't over - as shining a bright light on the subject might lead to some oversight (although a witch hunt is unpalatable and not productive) - outfits like roaches corner are obvious bad guys - but when the "good guys" start to behave like bad guys something should be done - maybe now the fuse has been lit.
That Dave Forman has been exposed for allegedly shilling his own stuff - such a breach of trust is truly freaking vile. Along the way I think my TPG of choice has made some bad business decisions. This perhaps a game changer. It will certainly devalue the brand as trust is an important concept when farming out one's cards. Much sadness.

RichardSimon · #8 01-29-2016, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwyer

If Peter Calderon for example shill bidded, does that mean Heritage Auctions shill bids in their auctions?

Heaven forbid.
I would think that an auction house that bars me from bidding, and from their website, for having my autograph opinions quoted in Nash's HOS (they said I worked for him, did not know giving opinions would be called working) would not also be a shill bidder.
fyi - I never bid with them on anything.

earlywynnfan · #9 01-29-2016, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwyer

If Peter Calderon for example shill bidded, does that mean Heritage Auctions shill bids in their auctions?

Remember, HA has clearly stated that they reserve the right to bid up auctions if they feel the price isn't high enough. They may even just win the item themselves if they feel they can sell it directly for more. This was per Chris Ivy.

Ken

irv · #10 01-29-2016, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman5520

You know what is most infuriating about this mess?! Last spring I taught a card collecting class to my students. Many members on here donated cards/supplies to us and they LOVED it. It was collecting in its purest form and was great to see. I know there are thousands of honest collectors out there and I will convey that to these kids......but I do have a few questions:

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

Tough question, but tell them this type of thing has been going on for years in all areas of the world and that 2 wrongs don't make a right and the fact these people were caught.

Reinforce the love about collecting and not about making money and the hobby will survive.

sbfinley · #11 01-29-2016, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman5520

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list.

tiger8mush · #12 01-29-2016, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list.

And if you discovered one of your slabbed signatures was doctored? You could care less? Employees were willing to do what it took to make more money by shilling - would they authenticate a doctored signature to make more money?

slidekellyslide · #13 01-29-2016, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list.

The only problem then is that your next card is going to cost you more money because the market for years was artificially inflated by the shillers in these auctions. Even if they won their own lot back it created a false market.

Leon · #14 01-29-2016, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list.

See R312 thread. I found my next card last night and am looking for the next one!! All of this thread is a good learning lesson.

bobbyw8469 · #15 01-29-2016, 11:49 AM

Quote:

There isn't one person on any of these boards that would have withstood the hazing I took and never once complained or went to the mods. I obviously have a set. Thank you very much.]

Uhmmmm.....you don't have the lock in that department Davey boy! Trust me. There was someone before you that was hazed and never went to the mods.

howard38 · #16 01-29-2016, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman5520

You know what is most infuriating about this mess?! Last spring I taught a card collecting class to my students. Many members on here donated cards/supplies to us and they LOVED it. It was collecting in its purest form and was great to see. I know there are thousands of honest collectors out there and I will convey that to these kids......but I do have a few questions:

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

There probably isn't any reason to explain it to them. This barely made a peep in the mainstream media so unless the kids are following a forum like net54 they probably haven't heard about it.

ullmandds · #17 01-29-2016, 01:37 PM

I'm disappointed...I am...but in reality all aspects of life are filled with corruption. The best at a given skill/sport/vocation is almost always flawed in some way.

So we now all know for sure what we pretty much knew already. People will go to jail...some will leave the hobby...most wont. Many reputations will be trashed and ethics/morals questioned.

It seems to me the climate was/is that pretty much everyone is doing it...so if everyone is founds to be doing the same bad things...the repercussions wont be so bad as if it were just a few.

Hasn't something like this happened in just about every other type of collecting known to man.

I still love the cards...I always will. So now I know for sure what I pretty much already knew...I have been overpaying for my "stuff" for years.

Mark · #18 01-29-2016, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I'm disappointed...I am...but in reality all aspects of life are filled with corruption. The best at a given skill/sport/vocation is almost always flawed in some way.

So we now all know for sure what we pretty much knew already. People will go to jail...some will leave the hobby...most wont. Many reputations will be trashed and ethics/morals questioned.

It seems to me the climate was/is that pretty much everyone is doing it...so if everyone is founds to be doing the same bad things...the repercussions wont be so bad as if it were just a few.

Hasn't something like this happened in just about every other type of collecting known to man.

This sort of thing happens a lot in many places, such as Russia.

rdwyer · #19 01-29-2016, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Heaven forbid.
I would think that an auction house that bars me from bidding, and from their website, for having my autograph opinions quoted in Nash's HOS (they said I worked for him, did not know giving opinions would be called working) would not also be a shill bidder.
fyi - I never bid with them on anything.

I was using Peter Calderon for an example. Others involved with AH's did the same thing. So does that mean those companies would also shill bid with their latest auction? The lesson I learned from all this, is not to trust any of the AH's.

ullmandds · #20 01-29-2016, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

This sort of thing happens a lot in many places, such as Russia.

ha...much worse happens in russia!

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