the list (of criminals) is revealed

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

- you don't know it. It only bothers other people. It's the same when you're stupid.

Now that is funny.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

Now that is funny.

+1

[mooch]

It's been pretty quite y'all. Do my fellow collectors feel, as I do, that we need some closure on this episode? We haven't seen many step up and take responsibility. There have been some serious charges leveled against TPGs in particular. Although millions are at stake for them, I see no response. As a small fish, why should I put in a $100-$300 plastic order with TPGs any more? As a non-dealer, and therefore a potential victim of shilling, I am feeling pretty bad about buying any card over $20 and the hobby in general. I feel like focusing my collecting on low-grade and cheap cards. Do other hobby collectors feel this way?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by mooch

It's been pretty quite y'all. Do my fellow collectors feel, as I do, that we need some closure on this episode? We haven't seen many step up and take responsibility. There have been some serious charges leveled against TPGs in particular. Although millions are at stake for them, I see no response. As a small fish, why should I put in a $100-$300 plastic order with TPGs any more? As a non-dealer, and therefore a potential victim of shilling, I am feeling pretty bad about buying any card over $20 and the hobby in general. I feel like focusing my collecting on low-grade and cheap cards. Do other hobby collectors feel this way?

I have for quite some time. I find it far more enjoyable to own a run of lower grade cards than a single high grade one. Actually, if you like cards of the 1970s, there hasn't been a better time to collect them Even really nice 6-7-8 cards are going for less than the cost to slab them.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by mooch

It's been pretty quite y'all. Do my fellow collectors feel, as I do, that we need some closure on this episode? We haven't seen many step up and take responsibility. There have been some serious charges leveled against TPGs in particular. Although millions are at stake for them, I see no response. As a small fish, why should I put in a $100-$300 plastic order with TPGs any more? As a non-dealer, and therefore a potential victim of shilling, I am feeling pretty bad about buying any card over $20 and the hobby in general. I feel like focusing my collecting on low-grade and cheap cards. Do other hobby collectors feel this way?

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

what is 'cheap' sometimes becomes more expensive....1952 Mantle PSA 1s 3 years ago were a loot cheaper then they are now..

I do enjoy though in the past buying cards graded where the grading costs had to be more than the card...

[Republicaninmass]

Would it matter if low grade collector got shilled $50 and Mr money bags got shilled $500?

I can't believe some of the posts here that because it affects 'big money players', its fine, they deserve it, and all the better for the Lower grade collector.

In my opinion, I don't care of it was $1, ONE time. It isn't right, and people should be held accountable.

[mybuddyinc]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Would it matter if low grade collector got shilled $50 and Mr money bags got shilled $500?

I can't believe some of the posts here that because it affects 'big money players', its fine, they deserve it, and all the better for the Lower grade collector.

In my opinion, I don't care of it was $1, ONE time. It isn't right, and people should be held accountable.

++++ Basically what I was trying to say.

[mybuddyinc]

It has been brought up a few times that this ** pathetic crap ** only effects high end collectors. I do agree that is the case in most situations. HOWEVER, I do also believe it does effect “us” lower/middle end collectors in many situations:

Say someone was to bid on a lot of 500 middle grade, raw T206s. He wins the lot at $10,000 (which is in the “big boy” range). That's $20/card. If he's a dealer / flipper (which is fine), he could sell them at $25 a card and make a decent profit. And a buyer would be happy at that price.

NOW, say he was shilled up to $12,000. Then the cards are $24 each. He would then have to pass that “bump” onto his buyers. So, now, he's selling these “shilled” cards at $30 each.

You can say “only $5” difference. BUT it adds up over the long run of anyone's “low to mid grade” set. As well as, if not worse, giving a false, inflated worth of the cards (just like the “big” cards).

IMO, everyone's screwed. Very sad, indeed.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by whitehse

My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue.

Andrew -

One quick look at the list of shill bidding will make it apparent that your statement isn't correct. For example, look at all of the pricing of the items from the Feb-09 auction.

And this shill bidding affected pricing across the entire hobby. It doesn't matter if you were a Mastro bidder or not.

Bill

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

Doug Allen is a dousche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets and hopefully an a$$ raping at camp walk away post sentancing. He treated many people like he treated you and acted like he was a big shot and above everyone else at most shows. I have said the same thing about Mastro in the past.

Where you are wrong is when you say it only affected big money people. Many great collections went through Mastro and Steinbach, Mastronet, and Legendary. I plugged my nose and bid on many items. There are many "big money" and "small money" people on that list. Remember that the shilling probably affected the small time collector more as they were reaching to spend that much money on one or two items. I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Doug Allen is a douche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets.
I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

+1

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Doug Allen is a dousche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets and hopefully an a$$ raping at camp walk away post sentancing. He treated many people like he treated you and acted like he was a big shot and above everyone else at most shows. I have said the same thing about Mastro in the past.

Where you are wrong is when you say it only affected big money people. Many great collections went through Mastro and Steinbach, Mastronet, and Legendary. I plugged my nose and bid on many items. There are many "big money" and "small money" people on that list. Remember that the shilling probably affected the small time collector more as they were reaching to spend that much money on one or two items. I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

Duluth speaks da truth. Spelled out like a hammer slamming down on a nail.

[mickeymao34]

If anyone have the time check out the air waves of the other Forum. They are refusing to post the List and saying posting of list breaks forum rules and denying members access to the list (with great reason). The Mods are out like secret police and the backlash is will noted. The last comment from a Mod in response to a question as to why does a Card forum have a on-going discussion about this and allowed to post the List. Trying to quell the restless, the Mod implies that Mastro was more of a Card auction house and the scandal is more isolated to cards vs game used items. Hilarious. The posts of the members sound like the disenchanted populous before the Revolution.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

If anyone have the time check out the air waves of the other Forum. They are refusing to post the List and saying posting of list breaks forum rules and denying members access to the list (with great reason). The Mods are out like secret police and the backlash is will noted. The last comment from a Mod, trying to quell the restless, goes as much to say that Mastro was strictly a Card auction house and the scandal is more to do with card auctions than game used auctions. Hilarious. The posts of the members sound like the disenchanted populous before the Revolution.

Dan Knoll worked for SCDA a game used authentication company. He appears as a consignor/shiller 97 times.

Here's an interesting thread from 2007.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=86809

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Dan Knoll worked for SCDA a game used authentication company. He appears as a consignor/shiller 97 times.

Here's an interesting thread from 2007.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=86809

You put in a link and many (as I) lose about 5-10 minutes of our lives reading old posts. That said there is a lot of info on the board and some of it is interesting to say the least....

btw, it is ok to mention CU here....or whatever you want to with your name by your post.



.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We've been complaining about the censorship on the CU board forever. It's not going to change, from their perspective as a publicly traded company there is no upside to allowing controversial discussions that might reflect badly on PSA.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

You put in a link and many (as I) lose about 5-10 minutes of our lives reading old posts. That said there is a lot of info on the board and some of it is interesting to say the least....

btw, it is ok to mention CU here....or whatever you want to with your name by your post.



.

I'm not so sure he was referring to CU, he seems to be talking about game used items. That's why I referred to Dan Knoll, a game used authentication expert being on the list about 100 times and then posted a link to our forum from 2007 in which Doug Allen and others (including me) extoll the virtues of Knoll.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'm not so sure he was referring to CU, he seems to be talking about game used items. That's why I referred to Dan Knoll, a game used authentication expert being on the list about 100 times and then posted a link to our forum from 2007 in which Doug Allen and others (including me) extoll the virtues of Knoll.

My statement was more general but see Peter S response right above for the reason on CU. .....Game Used Universe, you can say that too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'm not so sure he was referring to CU, he seems to be talking about game used items. That's why I referred to Dan Knoll, a game used authentication expert being on the list about 100 times and then posted a link to our forum from 2007 in which Doug Allen and others (including me) extoll the virtues of Knoll.

Oh my misunderstanding. In any event the general observation about CU is valid.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Leon

You put in a link and many (as I) lose about 5-10 minutes of our lives reading old posts.

.

I got sucked into that 10 year old Hal thread for over half an hour.....quite the rabbit hole, indeed.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

If anyone have the time check out the air waves of the other Forum. They are refusing to post the List and saying posting of list breaks forum rules and denying members access to the list (with great reason). The Mods are out like secret police and the backlash is will noted. The last comment from a Mod in response to a question as to why does a Card forum have a on-going discussion about this and allowed to post the List. Trying to quell the restless, the Mod implies that Mastro was more of a Card auction house and the scandal is more isolated to cards vs game used items. Hilarious. The posts of the members sound like the disenchanted populous before the Revolution.

I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.

[sago]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.

Godwin's law has been invoked. Thread may be ending soon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sago

Godwin's law has been invoked. Thread may be ending soon.

Yup.

[Rickyy]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.

Or Pyongyang....

Ricky Yoneda

[bbeck]

Can't wait for the next Hauls Of Shame. Should be a good one.