the list (of criminals) is revealed

ElCabron · #1 02-02-2016, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

I wondered if it would be possible to express an opinion here without being personally attacked........... guess not.

The answers are "no." I don't beat my wife either (only because I'm not married.)

I'm not sure why you took that question as a personal attack because I think it's a fair question to ask. I am not at all interested in hearing what shill bidders think about any of this. I think a lot of people who are not on the list have not chimed in at all due to the fact that they, too, have shilled items, either in Mastro during the years the records were destroyed, or with other auction houses. There are far more offenders than what appears on that list.

Keep in mind, that list is just 2 years from just one auction house. There are probably quite a few board members who have shill bidding skeletons in their closets and are hoping everyone would just drop this issue and move on to funner things.

I disagree with most of what you say in points 1 and 2 and I don't understand why so many people are coming to the defense of the people named on the list when they are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. If you think there are examples where something on the list might have looked like shill bidding, but was not, please let us know. Perhaps there are answers to those questions. If someone has been incorrectly added to that list, let us know. Or at least let us know why they can't come here and question it on their own.

But your point about there being different degrees is valid. Is Peter S. the same as Doug Allen? No way. Not even in the same ballpark. That's why he's not going to jail. But he's still a shill bidder. There are some examples of multiple offenders that were undeniably involved in shill bidding, though. Are you really suggesting that JC Clarke, or Kevin Keating, or Dave Forman shouldn't be on the list?

I would have thought that anyone who looked at the list or knew anything about Doug Allen would be able to easily put into perspective the differing levels of criminals that made the list.

Doug Allen > JC Clarke > Peter Spaeth

-Ryan

Mark17 · #2 02-02-2016, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElCabron

I'm not sure why you took that question as a personal attack because I think it's a fair question to ask. I am not at all interested in hearing what shill bidders think about any of this. I think a lot of people who are not on the list have not chimed in at all due to the fact that they, too, have shilled items, either in Mastro during the years the records were destroyed, or with other auction houses. There are far more offenders than what appears on that list.

Keep in mind, that list is just 2 years from just one auction house. There are probably quite a few board members who have shill bidding skeletons in their closets and are hoping everyone would just drop this issue and move on to funner things.

I disagree with most of what you say in points 1 and 2 and I don't understand why so many people are coming to the defense of the people named on the list when they are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. If you think there are examples where something on the list might have looked like shill bidding, but was not, please let us know. Perhaps there are answers to those questions. If someone has been incorrectly added to that list, let us know. Or at least let us know why they can't come here and question it on their own.

But your point about there being different degrees is valid. Is Peter S. the same as Doug Allen? No way. Not even in the same ballpark. That's why he's not going to jail. But he's still a shill bidder. There are some examples of multiple offenders that were undeniably involved in shill bidding, though. Are you really suggesting that JC Clarke, or Kevin Keating, or Dave Forman shouldn't be on the list?

I would have thought that anyone who looked at the list or knew anything about Doug Allen would be able to easily put into perspective the differing levels of criminals that made the list.

Doug Allen > JC Clarke > Peter Spaeth

-Ryan

Maybe my posts have not been clear, or maybe you are ascribing some preconceptions on them/me, so I will respond to you once more to see if I can clarify:

A. I'm not a shill bidder. I've only sent about 8 items to auction houses in the past 20 years, so I'm not anything close to being a "frequent flyer." If possible, let's focus on the issue, and the points raised, rather than on me.

B. There are only about 5 names on the list that I even recognized, and nobody whom I have spoken to in the past 20-odd years. I did do business with one of those named back in the 1980s a few times. So I cannot comment on who is/isn't there.

C. I'm not defending anybody because I don't know the players or their crimes, or the validity of the list for that matter. For those same reasons I'm not comfortable condemning them either. Maybe more (substantiated) info will come out and that might change... we'll see how this plays out.

Others here are much quicker to judge and that's up to them. If you want to take issue with the fact I'm not grabbing my pitchfork and joining you, that's fine. If it turns out people were using bidders' maximum bids against them, I'll join you and bring a howitzer.

When you say: "But your point about there being different degrees is valid..." that's good because that was about 90% of what I was trying to get across.

Canofcorn · #3 02-03-2016, 12:03 AM

That list was huge. Thought I would never stop scrolling down. Wow

vintagetoppsguy · #4 02-03-2016, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

That list was huge. Thought I would never stop scrolling down. Wow

Hey, douche bag, put your name in your post!

And if any of the other members didn't read what he wrote earlier and then edited out, yes, he is a douche bag.

Edited to add: I've had a couple board members ask me what he said. Basically he said how this was only a 'rich white man's' crime. There was more, but that's the gist of it.

1952boyntoncollector · #5 02-03-2016, 07:46 AM

man looking at the last 30 or so posts..i have to think, man some posters think MY posts are confusing ...but yet they can understand all of those posts with the analogies ..I need a rosetta stone

Runscott · #6 02-03-2016, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

man looking at the last 30 or so posts..i have to think, man some posters think MY posts are confusing ...but yet they can understand all of those posts with the analogies ..I need a rosetta stone

Well-posted Jake

Exhibitman · #7 02-03-2016, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

man looking at the last 30 or so posts..i have to think, man some posters think MY posts are confusing ...but yet they can understand all of those posts with the analogies ..I need a rosetta stone

Your posts ARE confusing; don't sell yourself short.

1952boyntoncollector · #8 02-03-2016, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Your posts ARE confusing; don't sell yourself short.

ah and your posts really add value and people thank you for their posts...I guess my last post wasn't confusing for you to comment..

I know I will be confused if you actually post something that people in the hobby would value when commenting to me.

and no. posts about .fake 1952 Topps Mantle and Wagners on ebay do not count if you go there...

Canofcorn · #9 02-03-2016, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Hey, douche bag, put your name in your post!

And if any of the other members didn't read what he wrote earlier and then edited out, yes, he is a douche bag.

I don't stoop to namecalling. You would not say this to my face, believe me.
You have shown yourself to be exactly who you are.

Leon · #10 02-03-2016, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

I don't stoop to namecalling. You would not say this to my face, believe me.
You have shown yourself to be exactly who you are.

You can not post anymore in this thread without putting your full name next to your post. I am not taking sides only trying to maintain the rules.....

and to correct an above statement concerning an invoice day and date to Mike Wo.ng, it was actually a $3700 invoice from 11//2014....other than that, I am out of it...not my problem.

mickeymao34 · #11 02-03-2016, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

You can not post anymore in this thread without putting your full name next to your post. I am not taking sides only trying to maintain the rules.....

and to correct an above statement concerning an invoice day and date to Mike Wo.ng, it was actually a $3700 invoice from 11//2014....other than that, I am out of it...not my problem.

see my last post. In this case better to be a dead beat bidder with 2600 saved than a du ma out 2600 and stuck with a jersey with a question mark.

vintagetoppsguy · #12 02-03-2016, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

I don't stoop to namecalling.

No you just stoop to making disparaging remarks about "white people".

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